3 ms·

Right, I wouldn't discredit electrical engineers. I can reasonably expect my house not to burn to the ground due to an electrical fire, and my washing machine/f

Right, I wouldn't discredit electrical engineers. I can reasonably expect my house not to burn to the ground due to an electrical fire, and my washing machine/fridge will probably fail safe as well. Hardware engineers mostly get a pass in my book, too (when was the last time your CPU hung?). Meanwhile, Toyota is allowed to ship buggy, untested, unauditable ECUs[0]. How can SE be considered a legitimate engineering discipline when such examples abound? The "Software engineer" title ought to be reserved for those doing formal verification or at least aiming for high code coverage and otherwise employing proper design and testing methods. Think programmers of NASA shuttle avionics or airplane autopilots. It's not for your run-of-the-mill startup coder (which includes me). [0]: https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/pubs/koopman14_toyota_ua_slides.pdf https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/pubs/koopman14_toyota_ua_...

hga 10y ago
Meanwhile, Toyota is allowed to ship buggy, untested, unauditable ECUs[0]. How can SE be considered a legitimate engineering discipline when such examples abound? In the bad old days, steam boilers would blow up a lot; check your state and maybe local laws and you'll likely see a section to regulate this. Bridges were also prone to failing, and still do due to design errors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-35W_Mississippi_River_bridge#Investigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-35W_Mississippi_River_bridge... (and even then, the bridge was sufficiently over-engineered that it lasted a long time before failure) As for the EE examples you give, it just so happens I'm about to personally totally rewire a house I just bought that was built in 1910. Relevant things I've noticed include: The National Electrical Code is drafted and revised in an open fashion, is thoroughly sane, and anyone can buy a copy. My city also makes copies available for free for perusal, and at the counter were you apply for permits and such there was a copy of the combined complete code for residential housing (1-3 stories, 1-2 or 3 families). That version is also online: http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2012/index.htm http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2012/index.htm (that's one revision behind the current, many cities like mine prefer to not be at the bleeding edge). Then there's the permitting and inspection process: while it's obviously ignored a lot, by law you're required to apply for a permit, including plans of what you propose to do. Upon approval, you post the permit at the work site, and call in city inspectors for "rough in" inspection(s), where they will check whatever will eventually be hidden, and they do a single final inspection when all is done. So there's enforcement of the code (at the very least backstopped by insurance companies who will look askance if your unpermitted work results in a loss), in a rather open way, and the city's top dog for this, the Building Official, certainly knew the electrical code when I asked him about the interpretation of one detail. All car makers, by comparison ... well, there's not even a PE system for this field (https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe), it's too new, and and there's no consensus on even the most fundamental of things. Everything they do is in secret, with no outside oversight mechanisms, and one company we though really had their act together, such that we'd trust their code with our lives, turned out to be utterly unworthy of our trust, that is Toyoda, of course. My take on this is that this sad state of affairs will continue until a software error kills 4-6 figures of people, and of course there are many domains of software where the rigor that's in theory demanded of embedded systems like cars isn't required. Like, say, this social media site we're using right now.
fratlas 10y ago
I find this interesting - I changed degrees halfway through electrical engineering to computer science (which is still under the engineering school at my university). You're right, EE is much more disciplined, however, computer science/SE still requires an extremely logical thought process, and is applying science/maths to solve real problems. For these reasons, I believe it is engineering (even if somewhat softer than other strands).

hga 10y ago

Meanwhile, Toyota is allowed to ship buggy, untested, unauditable ECUs[0]. How can SE be considered a legitimate engineering discipline when such examples abound? In the bad old days, steam boilers would blow up a lot; check your state and maybe local laws and you'll likely see a section to regulate this. Bridges were also prone to failing, and still do due to design errors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-35W_Mississippi_River_bridge#Investigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-35W_Mississippi_River_bridge... (and even then, the bridge was sufficiently over-engineered that it lasted a long time before failure) As for the EE examples you give, it just so happens I'm about to personally totally rewire a house I just bought that was built in 1910. Relevant things I've noticed include: The National Electrical Code is drafted and revised in an open fashion, is thoroughly sane, and anyone can buy a copy. My city also makes copies available for free for perusal, and at the counter were you apply for permits and such there was a copy of the combined complete code for residential housing (1-3 stories, 1-2 or 3 families). That version is also online: http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2012/index.htm http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2012/index.htm (that's one revision behind the current, many cities like mine prefer to not be at the bleeding edge). Then there's the permitting and inspection process: while it's obviously ignored a lot, by law you're required to apply for a permit, including plans of what you propose to do. Upon approval, you post the permit at the work site, and call in city inspectors for "rough in" inspection(s), where they will check whatever will eventually be hidden, and they do a single final inspection when all is done. So there's enforcement of the code (at the very least backstopped by insurance companies who will look askance if your unpermitted work results in a loss), in a rather open way, and the city's top dog for this, the Building Official, certainly knew the electrical code when I asked him about the interpretation of one detail. All car makers, by comparison ... well, there's not even a PE system for this field (https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe), it's too new, and and there's no consensus on even the most fundamental of things. Everything they do is in secret, with no outside oversight mechanisms, and one company we though really had their act together, such that we'd trust their code with our lives, turned out to be utterly unworthy of our trust, that is Toyoda, of course. My take on this is that this sad state of affairs will continue until a software error kills 4-6 figures of people, and of course there are many domains of software where the rigor that's in theory demanded of embedded systems like cars isn't required. Like, say, this social media site we're using right now.

fratlas 10y ago

I find this interesting - I changed degrees halfway through electrical engineering to computer science (which is still under the engineering school at my university). You're right, EE is much more disciplined, however, computer science/SE still requires an extremely logical thought process, and is applying science/maths to solve real problems. For these reasons, I believe it is engineering (even if somewhat softer than other strands).