6 ms·

It is very inefficient to bring people to Germany and other western countries in order to help them. We could help one person in Germany, or another 10 people i

by jkot 10y ago

It is very inefficient to bring people to Germany and other western countries in order to help them. We could help one person in Germany, or another 10 people in Turkey for the same money. Most people coming to Europe are economic migrantw, not from countries affected by war. Refugees who can not afford $4000 for transport are left without help. It all started when Turkey asked for humanitarian aid. Merkel would not send money, but open invitation. It is all one big virtue signaling, most people do not really care about some people in Africa or Asia.

curiousgal 10y ago
>Most people coming to Europe are economic migrantw, not from countries affected by war Exactly this. The reasonable thing to do would've been to differentiate refugees from others and proceed to help the refugees because there's no question about that. Edit: Wait, I take it by the downvotes that you think people should not be screened and that everyone who shows up at the borders is a distressed refugee fleeing war? I am a Third World citizen and I know for a fact that no one thinks of Europe as a dreamland so yeah, you're good, refugees are all you've been/will be getting. /s
- jlg23 10y ago
  >> Most people coming to Europe are economic migrantw [sic] Source for that statement? > The reasonable thing to do would've been to differentiate refugees from others This is exactly what we are doing, but this requires actual checks, not just a look at a person's face.
  - thecopy 10y ago
    It is reasonable to assume that if you enter Germany/Sweden it is not because you are fearing for your life in Austria/Denmark.
    - jlg23 10y ago
      Austrian and Danish people may freely enter Germany under the Schengen Agreement. If you are referring to refugees who enter through those two countries, you are ignoring that these countries are also not initial ports of entry into the Schengen Area. But I generally refuse to follow that line of argumentation: Having the initial ports of entry bear the responsibility for all new refugees is only a fair thing when you are not one of them. Neither Greece nor Italy have the capacity and as long as we are playing hardball international politics in the countries refugees come from, we have to take responsibility for the results of our actions.
    - ris 10y ago
      Ah - so the only countries that should be expected to take refugees should be those immediately sharing a border with them, right?
      - curiousgal 10y ago
        Of course not. But when you have "refugees" demanding to be allocated in a safe country and not another safe country then you can't help but question their status as a refugee (i.e. someone seeking safety). http://news.sky.com/story/1557225/refugee-its-germany-or-nothing-for-us http://news.sky.com/story/1557225/refugee-its-germany-or-not...
        dalke 10y ago
        You say "refugees" but I only saw one such refugee mentioned in your link. I certainly didn't see enough to know if it was 0.1% of the refugees or 10% or some other number. Now, suppose you are a refugee, a mechanical engineer fluent in Arabic and professionally competent in English. Would you have a preference for a country like Sweden or Germany where you are more likely to get a job with your skills? Or would you equally accept being told to move to some other "safe country" where there is high unemployment, little demand for mechanical engineering jobs, and few English speakers? How do you express that preference without your refugee status being questioned?
  - oli5679 10y ago
    Anecdote, so place as much weight on this as you wish. I was working in a Starbucks in North London and sat next to a businessman. He started advising his wife/fiancee's distant family members on the phone who had travelled to Greece. He gave them detailed instructions to (1) destroy their passports and forms of ID, (2) claim to be Syrian refugees fleeing from a war-zone and spend a couple of days rehearsing their stories. He also gave them useful advice about the pros and cons of different country's refugee processing systems. There are obviously many migrants genuinely fleeing war-zones (and it is understandable that many others wish to escape oppression/ poor economic situations) but self reported origins + reasons should be taken with a pinch of salt. Many applicants know that claiming to be from war-torn Syria guarantees a successful asylum application due to the Geneva Convention, whilst admitting being an Afghan economic migrant complicates things.
    - cjhpufe 10y ago
      My partner's father is an immigration lawyer and does similar for people entering from his country of origin. Although many are from regions genuinely affected by war, still more were admitted as refugees because they told a good story.
  - hewhowhineth 10y ago
    According to first vice-president of the European Commission, citing some internal report from the Frontex (EU border agency), 60% are economic migrants. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/most-fleeing-to-europe-are-not-refugees-eu-official-says-1.2511133 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/most-fleeing-to...
    - dalke 10y ago
      It's been 6 months. Have these "new, unpublished, figures" since been published, or otherwise shown to be correct? In that news article, Timmermans also argued that border closures are not the right solution. Edit: If https://euobserver.com/migration/132048 https://euobserver.com/migration/132048 is correct, then the 40% refers to the people specifically from Syria. Most of the remaining 60% are from Iraq or Afghanistan. As that link says: > almost 90 percent the people who arrived by sea in the EU in December came from countries gripped by war or emerged from a wider regional conflict.
    - jlg23 10y ago
      I would love to see the actual numbers and how Frontex arrived at them - Frontex' job is NOT to decide on or even investigate in asylum applications at all. They have to refer applicants to relevant national authorities; one becomes an applicant by merely stating the wish to apply for asylum [1]. I furthermore have a severe problem with categorically saying that Moroccans "have no reason whatsoever to ask for refugee status" - the country is not as bad as it once was, but political activists are still far from safe [2]. [1] http://frontex.europa.eu/assets/Publications/Training/Practical_Guide_Pocket_Book.pdf http://frontex.europa.eu/assets/Publications/Training/Practi... [2] http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/moroccowestern-sahara http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/countries/middle-east-and...
- madaxe_again 10y ago
  Ah, I see. So you differentiate between the deserving poor and the undeserving poor? Tell me, how do you tell them apart? Do they wear badges?
em3rgent0rdr 10y ago
Sending money is not a viable long term solution. You must let them move to where they can make money themselves.
daleharvey 10y ago
You are probably right, people are dying in their thousands to cross the med because they want some more cash ...
- peteretep 10y ago
  Why do you think they're crossing the med instead of staying in Turkey?
  - daleharvey 10y ago
    Turkey doesnt give out refugee status and has little protection for refugees, including being able to return them to where they are fleeing from, it is completely overloaded with a lack of resources. While Europe makes it disgustingly hard for refugees to enter the human rights and eu law provided make it a much more realistic place to be stable / settled if you can get in.
    - jkot 10y ago
      Maybe rather than forcing people to cross the sea, we could send money directly in the first place.
    - dogma1138 10y ago
      Turkey is giving them a true refugee status rather than allowing them to arbitrarily seek asylum, Turkey is actually completely abiding by the UN convention on refugees while the EU are playing by their own rules.
  - icebraining 10y ago
    http://www.ibtimes.com/turkish-town-isis-crosshairs-kilis-residents-struggle-under-rocket-attacks-syria-2364467 http://www.ibtimes.com/turkish-town-isis-crosshairs-kilis-re...
- GunboatDiplomat 10y ago
  You say that like money is not a motivator powerful enough for people to risk their life.
timtammittee 10y ago
> Most people coming to Europe are economic migrantw, not from countries affected by war. Where do you get this information. If you talk about asylum seekers (The majority of the current inbound traffic), you can look up the numbers yourself they are published as datasets by the UNHCR [1] Looking at the top 5 origin states of asylum seekers for 2015 and 2016 reveals: Syrian Arab Rep. 30.5% Afghanistan 18.1% Iraq 11.9% Serbia and Kosovo 3.5% Pakistan 2.9% So more then 60% of the 2.7M asylum seekers are from Syria, Afganistan or Iraq all of which are currently in a state of conflict. [1] http://popstats.unhcr.org/en/asylum_seekers_monthly http://popstats.unhcr.org/en/asylum_seekers_monthly
- ThomPete 10y ago
  It's not that simple. Fleeing to a nearby country is one thing. Being able to move all the way to Germany, Denmark or Sweden isn't exactly being fleeing war anymore. The irony is that it's those with most money who can afford to move the furthest away from the refugee camps and many of those who do are men, leaving their family behind hoping to be able to get them to the country they end up in. https://www.rt.com/news/330284-economic-migrants-eu-refugees/ https://www.rt.com/news/330284-economic-migrants-eu-refugees...
- megalodon 10y ago
  Thank you for posting this. I am baffled at how some people just ignore reality and post (and believe in?) lies, even here on HN where most of us work with data. It's amazing that fact checking and critical thinking is so low in this internet age where information is freely available for everyone.
  - blahi 10y ago
    It's funny that you mention crtitical thinking when working with data. this data reports country of origin. Now make that critical thiught work please, and tell me why these refugees insist on goingfrom the safe Turkey to Germany?
    - 10y ago
igk 10y ago
>It is very inefficient to bring people to Germany and other western countries in order to help them. We could help one person in Germany, or another 10 people in Turkey for the same money. So let's start doing that, then close the borders

by jkot 10y ago

curiousgal 10y ago

>Most people coming to Europe are economic migrantw, not from countries affected by war Exactly this. The reasonable thing to do would've been to differentiate refugees from others and proceed to help the refugees because there's no question about that. Edit: Wait, I take it by the downvotes that you think people should not be screened and that everyone who shows up at the borders is a distressed refugee fleeing war? I am a Third World citizen and I know for a fact that no one thinks of Europe as a dreamland so yeah, you're good, refugees are all you've been/will be getting. /s

jlg23 10y ago
>> Most people coming to Europe are economic migrantw [sic] Source for that statement? > The reasonable thing to do would've been to differentiate refugees from others This is exactly what we are doing, but this requires actual checks, not just a look at a person's face.
- thecopy 10y ago
  It is reasonable to assume that if you enter Germany/Sweden it is not because you are fearing for your life in Austria/Denmark.
  - jlg23 10y ago
    Austrian and Danish people may freely enter Germany under the Schengen Agreement. If you are referring to refugees who enter through those two countries, you are ignoring that these countries are also not initial ports of entry into the Schengen Area. But I generally refuse to follow that line of argumentation: Having the initial ports of entry bear the responsibility for all new refugees is only a fair thing when you are not one of them. Neither Greece nor Italy have the capacity and as long as we are playing hardball international politics in the countries refugees come from, we have to take responsibility for the results of our actions.
  - ris 10y ago
    Ah - so the only countries that should be expected to take refugees should be those immediately sharing a border with them, right?
    - curiousgal 10y ago
      Of course not. But when you have "refugees" demanding to be allocated in a safe country and not another safe country then you can't help but question their status as a refugee (i.e. someone seeking safety). http://news.sky.com/story/1557225/refugee-its-germany-or-nothing-for-us http://news.sky.com/story/1557225/refugee-its-germany-or-not...
      - dalke 10y ago
        You say "refugees" but I only saw one such refugee mentioned in your link. I certainly didn't see enough to know if it was 0.1% of the refugees or 10% or some other number. Now, suppose you are a refugee, a mechanical engineer fluent in Arabic and professionally competent in English. Would you have a preference for a country like Sweden or Germany where you are more likely to get a job with your skills? Or would you equally accept being told to move to some other "safe country" where there is high unemployment, little demand for mechanical engineering jobs, and few English speakers? How do you express that preference without your refugee status being questioned?
- oli5679 10y ago
  Anecdote, so place as much weight on this as you wish. I was working in a Starbucks in North London and sat next to a businessman. He started advising his wife/fiancee's distant family members on the phone who had travelled to Greece. He gave them detailed instructions to (1) destroy their passports and forms of ID, (2) claim to be Syrian refugees fleeing from a war-zone and spend a couple of days rehearsing their stories. He also gave them useful advice about the pros and cons of different country's refugee processing systems. There are obviously many migrants genuinely fleeing war-zones (and it is understandable that many others wish to escape oppression/ poor economic situations) but self reported origins + reasons should be taken with a pinch of salt. Many applicants know that claiming to be from war-torn Syria guarantees a successful asylum application due to the Geneva Convention, whilst admitting being an Afghan economic migrant complicates things.
  - cjhpufe 10y ago
    My partner's father is an immigration lawyer and does similar for people entering from his country of origin. Although many are from regions genuinely affected by war, still more were admitted as refugees because they told a good story.
- hewhowhineth 10y ago
  According to first vice-president of the European Commission, citing some internal report from the Frontex (EU border agency), 60% are economic migrants. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/most-fleeing-to-europe-are-not-refugees-eu-official-says-1.2511133 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/most-fleeing-to...
  - dalke 10y ago
    It's been 6 months. Have these "new, unpublished, figures" since been published, or otherwise shown to be correct? In that news article, Timmermans also argued that border closures are not the right solution. Edit: If https://euobserver.com/migration/132048 https://euobserver.com/migration/132048 is correct, then the 40% refers to the people specifically from Syria. Most of the remaining 60% are from Iraq or Afghanistan. As that link says: > almost 90 percent the people who arrived by sea in the EU in December came from countries gripped by war or emerged from a wider regional conflict.
  - jlg23 10y ago
    I would love to see the actual numbers and how Frontex arrived at them - Frontex' job is NOT to decide on or even investigate in asylum applications at all. They have to refer applicants to relevant national authorities; one becomes an applicant by merely stating the wish to apply for asylum [1]. I furthermore have a severe problem with categorically saying that Moroccans "have no reason whatsoever to ask for refugee status" - the country is not as bad as it once was, but political activists are still far from safe [2]. [1] http://frontex.europa.eu/assets/Publications/Training/Practical_Guide_Pocket_Book.pdf http://frontex.europa.eu/assets/Publications/Training/Practi... [2] http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/moroccowestern-sahara http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/countries/middle-east-and...
madaxe_again 10y ago
Ah, I see. So you differentiate between the deserving poor and the undeserving poor? Tell me, how do you tell them apart? Do they wear badges?

em3rgent0rdr 10y ago

Sending money is not a viable long term solution. You must let them move to where they can make money themselves.

daleharvey 10y ago

You are probably right, people are dying in their thousands to cross the med because they want some more cash ...

peteretep 10y ago
Why do you think they're crossing the med instead of staying in Turkey?
- daleharvey 10y ago
  Turkey doesnt give out refugee status and has little protection for refugees, including being able to return them to where they are fleeing from, it is completely overloaded with a lack of resources. While Europe makes it disgustingly hard for refugees to enter the human rights and eu law provided make it a much more realistic place to be stable / settled if you can get in.
  - jkot 10y ago
    Maybe rather than forcing people to cross the sea, we could send money directly in the first place.
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    Turkey is giving them a true refugee status rather than allowing them to arbitrarily seek asylum, Turkey is actually completely abiding by the UN convention on refugees while the EU are playing by their own rules.
- icebraining 10y ago
  http://www.ibtimes.com/turkish-town-isis-crosshairs-kilis-residents-struggle-under-rocket-attacks-syria-2364467 http://www.ibtimes.com/turkish-town-isis-crosshairs-kilis-re...
GunboatDiplomat 10y ago
You say that like money is not a motivator powerful enough for people to risk their life.

timtammittee 10y ago

> Most people coming to Europe are economic migrantw, not from countries affected by war. Where do you get this information. If you talk about asylum seekers (The majority of the current inbound traffic), you can look up the numbers yourself they are published as datasets by the UNHCR [1] Looking at the top 5 origin states of asylum seekers for 2015 and 2016 reveals: Syrian Arab Rep. 30.5% Afghanistan 18.1% Iraq 11.9% Serbia and Kosovo 3.5% Pakistan 2.9% So more then 60% of the 2.7M asylum seekers are from Syria, Afganistan or Iraq all of which are currently in a state of conflict. [1] http://popstats.unhcr.org/en/asylum_seekers_monthly http://popstats.unhcr.org/en/asylum_seekers_monthly

ThomPete 10y ago
It's not that simple. Fleeing to a nearby country is one thing. Being able to move all the way to Germany, Denmark or Sweden isn't exactly being fleeing war anymore. The irony is that it's those with most money who can afford to move the furthest away from the refugee camps and many of those who do are men, leaving their family behind hoping to be able to get them to the country they end up in. https://www.rt.com/news/330284-economic-migrants-eu-refugees/ https://www.rt.com/news/330284-economic-migrants-eu-refugees...
megalodon 10y ago
Thank you for posting this. I am baffled at how some people just ignore reality and post (and believe in?) lies, even here on HN where most of us work with data. It's amazing that fact checking and critical thinking is so low in this internet age where information is freely available for everyone.
- blahi 10y ago
  It's funny that you mention crtitical thinking when working with data. this data reports country of origin. Now make that critical thiught work please, and tell me why these refugees insist on goingfrom the safe Turkey to Germany?
  - 10y ago

igk 10y ago

>It is very inefficient to bring people to Germany and other western countries in order to help them. We could help one person in Germany, or another 10 people in Turkey for the same money. So let's start doing that, then close the borders