4 ms·

No, it's perfectly meaningful to talk about Israel/Palestine - and by extension the US - when criticizing actions by China. Otherwise you end up with the same

by dave2000 10y ago

No, it's perfectly meaningful to talk about Israel/Palestine - and by extension the US - when criticizing actions by China. Otherwise you end up with the same narrative you get in pretty much every media outlet in the world; whatever the US does is good, no terrorism or support for murderous dictators there (cough south america..cuba...saudi arabia..iran...iraq...indonesia etc etc etc ), and whatever China does is bad.

douche 10y ago
China and Tibet is more like what would have happened if the Arab Legion and the other Arab powers weren't so blindingly incompetent in 1947. There's a long, long history of China controlling Tibet, back at least to the Tang dynasty. The ChiComs are nastier about it than most of the previous Chinese governments, but that's what you get when you refute the old mandate of heaven/chakravartin mashup of political legitimacy espoused by the old empire for ... what justification do the ChiComs give for their political legitimacy? Having the biggest boot and the willingness to murder millions and imprison more, I suppose.
- toyg 10y ago
  > what justification do the ChiComs give for their political legitimacy? Well, it's right there in art. I of their own Constitution, I think: "The People’s Republic of China is a socialist state under the people’s democratic dictatorship led by the working class and based on the alliance of workers and peasants." It might have its problems (will the country forever have "workers" and "peasants"? Does the working class include peasants? Who does a democratic dictatorship actually dictate to? etc etc) but it's still better than divine mandate, tbh, which might explain why it's not been toppled yet.
- coldtea 10y ago
  The same legitimacy every other large government has. At least they only piss in their own pool -- not mess with peoples all around the world.
  - iofj 10y ago
    You may want to visit Africa. The time China was insulated to it's own people only is long gone.
    - lostlogin 10y ago
      > You may want to visit Africa Or the Pacific islands or South China Sea (where things are going bad fast). Even calling Tibet part of China is interesting. Ukraine is Russian now by that logic.
- huahaiy 10y ago
  Chinese govenment's justification in Tibet is mainly legalistic, as follows: Tibet was a part of the Qing Empire. Qing handled over all administrative power peacefully to Republic of China. People's Republic of China overthrow Republic of China, therefore inherits all of its administrative rights. Of course, the later part is muddier because officially the civil war is not over. On the ground, for the people, the real justification are different. It used to be the liberation of common Tibetan people from a regressive serfdom and a brutal theocracy, not unlike the communists' justification for themselves elsewhere in China. Similarly, after Deng, the justification is more about improving people's economic status and living conditions.
rrggrr 10y ago
Discouraging. Demolishing Larung Gar was likely on China's to-do list, but was probably moved-up in response to Obama's meet with the Dali Lama last week. China's real motivation in Tibet is water, arable land and secondarily eliminating a religious threat to central party rule. Everything else is pretense. Israel's motivation in Palestine is its own security from universally acknowledged threats it faces from its neighbors. There is no longer any occupation, no Israeli sovereign claim over Palestinian sovereign territory, and there are no resources to grab and no pretenses needed for Israel to justify its actions. A better comparison would be Russia in Crimea, where under the pretense of protecting a pro-Russia minority, Putin makes a grab to control oil and natural gas resources in the area which Ukraine previously sought to exploit.
- coenhyde 10y ago
  A lot of what you said is just not true. Israel takes a lot of West Bank water. And while the illegal jewish settlements might not be a sovereign claim by Israel. Israel isn't doing anything to stop them.
  - lostlogin 10y ago
    It's used as a cheap source of labour by many Israeli companies too. And while not occupied in the classical sense, everything's going in or out is controlled. The airspace is controlled, the place is heavily monitored and the populace are under no illusions as to has the power.
    - rrggrr 10y ago
      Its pretty clear everything going in and out is not controlled: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_Palestinian_rocket_at...
      - lostlogin 10y ago
        So some rockets and mortars were smuggled in? Let's ban most civilian use of road and kill the economy. At least that's what the Wikipedia article on the west bank says. It's compared to Apartheid South Africa for good reason.

douche 10y ago

China and Tibet is more like what would have happened if the Arab Legion and the other Arab powers weren't so blindingly incompetent in 1947. There's a long, long history of China controlling Tibet, back at least to the Tang dynasty. The ChiComs are nastier about it than most of the previous Chinese governments, but that's what you get when you refute the old mandate of heaven/chakravartin mashup of political legitimacy espoused by the old empire for ... what justification do the ChiComs give for their political legitimacy? Having the biggest boot and the willingness to murder millions and imprison more, I suppose.

toyg 10y ago
> what justification do the ChiComs give for their political legitimacy? Well, it's right there in art. I of their own Constitution, I think: "The People’s Republic of China is a socialist state under the people’s democratic dictatorship led by the working class and based on the alliance of workers and peasants." It might have its problems (will the country forever have "workers" and "peasants"? Does the working class include peasants? Who does a democratic dictatorship actually dictate to? etc etc) but it's still better than divine mandate, tbh, which might explain why it's not been toppled yet.
coldtea 10y ago
The same legitimacy every other large government has. At least they only piss in their own pool -- not mess with peoples all around the world.
- iofj 10y ago
  You may want to visit Africa. The time China was insulated to it's own people only is long gone.
  - lostlogin 10y ago
    > You may want to visit Africa Or the Pacific islands or South China Sea (where things are going bad fast). Even calling Tibet part of China is interesting. Ukraine is Russian now by that logic.
huahaiy 10y ago
Chinese govenment's justification in Tibet is mainly legalistic, as follows: Tibet was a part of the Qing Empire. Qing handled over all administrative power peacefully to Republic of China. People's Republic of China overthrow Republic of China, therefore inherits all of its administrative rights. Of course, the later part is muddier because officially the civil war is not over. On the ground, for the people, the real justification are different. It used to be the liberation of common Tibetan people from a regressive serfdom and a brutal theocracy, not unlike the communists' justification for themselves elsewhere in China. Similarly, after Deng, the justification is more about improving people's economic status and living conditions.

rrggrr 10y ago

Discouraging. Demolishing Larung Gar was likely on China's to-do list, but was probably moved-up in response to Obama's meet with the Dali Lama last week. China's real motivation in Tibet is water, arable land and secondarily eliminating a religious threat to central party rule. Everything else is pretense. Israel's motivation in Palestine is its own security from universally acknowledged threats it faces from its neighbors. There is no longer any occupation, no Israeli sovereign claim over Palestinian sovereign territory, and there are no resources to grab and no pretenses needed for Israel to justify its actions. A better comparison would be Russia in Crimea, where under the pretense of protecting a pro-Russia minority, Putin makes a grab to control oil and natural gas resources in the area which Ukraine previously sought to exploit.

coenhyde 10y ago
A lot of what you said is just not true. Israel takes a lot of West Bank water. And while the illegal jewish settlements might not be a sovereign claim by Israel. Israel isn't doing anything to stop them.
- lostlogin 10y ago
  It's used as a cheap source of labour by many Israeli companies too. And while not occupied in the classical sense, everything's going in or out is controlled. The airspace is controlled, the place is heavily monitored and the populace are under no illusions as to has the power.
  - rrggrr 10y ago
    Its pretty clear everything going in and out is not controlled: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_Palestinian_rocket_at...
    - lostlogin 10y ago
      So some rockets and mortars were smuggled in? Let's ban most civilian use of road and kill the economy. At least that's what the Wikipedia article on the west bank says. It's compared to Apartheid South Africa for good reason.