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Maybe then the people will vote in a government that cleans up this mess then. In a democracy I think it's fair to hold the people liable when the government th

Maybe then the people will vote in a government that cleans up this mess then. In a democracy I think it's fair to hold the people liable when the government they elect does something wrong (however it should probably be based on a pattern of violations, not "one bad apple").

mtgx 10y ago
Easier said than done in a country that doesn't value the idea of having multiple parties (and therefore real competition between them). What do you do when one party is racist and the other protects criminal cops? Or worse, if both protect criminal cops, and other government criminals?
- jdavis703 10y ago
  There's no excuse for a dual or single-party system in muni-level politics. In Oakland, CA (and probably other cities) they use non-partisan IRV (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting).
  - terravion 10y ago
    Oakland resident here. Oakland's IRV is terrible because we have no idea who will win the election and even as a relatively informed voter I have no idea who most of the 30-ish mayoral candidates are or what they stand for. I think Oakland shows elections work both ways. One way, we pick leaders who represent our deeply held views. The other, elections force us, the electorate, to face facts about what combination of policies produces a workable governing consensus, and maybe even changes our views to create a consensus. When it comes to Oakland mayor, we just randomly declare a preference in the dark and someone is declared winner with no real way to form a coalition. California's new top two system on the other hand is great. In liberal or conservative areas we get offered two meaningful choices that reflect the ideological split in the area. That is, do we want to be radical progressives or just pro-business liberals? Alternately are we reactionary conservatives or more just chamber of commerce Republicans? This gives real choice to the general election electorate and helps forge meaningful consensus.
randyrand 10y ago
It's a democratic republic. Unions are not democracies either, yet are incredibly strong.

mtgx 10y ago

Easier said than done in a country that doesn't value the idea of having multiple parties (and therefore real competition between them). What do you do when one party is racist and the other protects criminal cops? Or worse, if both protect criminal cops, and other government criminals?

jdavis703 10y ago
There's no excuse for a dual or single-party system in muni-level politics. In Oakland, CA (and probably other cities) they use non-partisan IRV (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting).
- terravion 10y ago
  Oakland resident here. Oakland's IRV is terrible because we have no idea who will win the election and even as a relatively informed voter I have no idea who most of the 30-ish mayoral candidates are or what they stand for. I think Oakland shows elections work both ways. One way, we pick leaders who represent our deeply held views. The other, elections force us, the electorate, to face facts about what combination of policies produces a workable governing consensus, and maybe even changes our views to create a consensus. When it comes to Oakland mayor, we just randomly declare a preference in the dark and someone is declared winner with no real way to form a coalition. California's new top two system on the other hand is great. In liberal or conservative areas we get offered two meaningful choices that reflect the ideological split in the area. That is, do we want to be radical progressives or just pro-business liberals? Alternately are we reactionary conservatives or more just chamber of commerce Republicans? This gives real choice to the general election electorate and helps forge meaningful consensus.

randyrand 10y ago

It's a democratic republic. Unions are not democracies either, yet are incredibly strong.