3 ms·

its too bad the people of this city have to pay for these damages and not the actual police involved.

jdavis703 10y ago
Maybe then the people will vote in a government that cleans up this mess then. In a democracy I think it's fair to hold the people liable when the government they elect does something wrong (however it should probably be based on a pattern of violations, not "one bad apple").
- mtgx 10y ago
  Easier said than done in a country that doesn't value the idea of having multiple parties (and therefore real competition between them). What do you do when one party is racist and the other protects criminal cops? Or worse, if both protect criminal cops, and other government criminals?
  - jdavis703 10y ago
    There's no excuse for a dual or single-party system in muni-level politics. In Oakland, CA (and probably other cities) they use non-partisan IRV (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting).
    - terravion 10y ago
      Oakland resident here. Oakland's IRV is terrible because we have no idea who will win the election and even as a relatively informed voter I have no idea who most of the 30-ish mayoral candidates are or what they stand for. I think Oakland shows elections work both ways. One way, we pick leaders who represent our deeply held views. The other, elections force us, the electorate, to face facts about what combination of policies produces a workable governing consensus, and maybe even changes our views to create a consensus. When it comes to Oakland mayor, we just randomly declare a preference in the dark and someone is declared winner with no real way to form a coalition. California's new top two system on the other hand is great. In liberal or conservative areas we get offered two meaningful choices that reflect the ideological split in the area. That is, do we want to be radical progressives or just pro-business liberals? Alternately are we reactionary conservatives or more just chamber of commerce Republicans? This gives real choice to the general election electorate and helps forge meaningful consensus.
- randyrand 10y ago
  It's a democratic republic. Unions are not democracies either, yet are incredibly strong.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
lolc 10y ago
It's fitting in a way. They handed power to assholes and didn't check back. Though if I read this correctly, some of it will not be paid by the city: "East Cleveland Police Chief Ralph Spotts did not appear at trial. [...] Of the other $12 million in punitive damages, $11 million was found against Spotts himself, DiCello said."
millzlane 10y ago
How does a traffic stop turn into assault, kidnapping, and false imprisonment. Why has this become a norm? The police have a duty to protects us from these exact crimes. If they commit the crimes themselves and we just pay them on admin leave because they deserve due process too. How can we resolve this? Whats to prevent them from doing it. Jailing them isn't working. We are jailing them right? Will it ever stop? We're essentially paying for them to commit crime that we end up paying for with settlements. It takes away from other things in the budget. The city pays settlements, now the city needs money for school programs, and the rest of the public services. Police are working overtime. They get stressed out. They beat some guy up and then the cycle starts over again. The city in turn needs state money, the state needs federal money. They don't have it so they print more up. Somewhere in another part of the country is another state sucking dick for federal money. It's one of the many reasons our deficit is the way it is. At what point do we say enough is enough. We can't keep spending money on this shit. Where is the accountability? I apologize for being crass. But we're literally paying for all of it.

Maybe then the people will vote in a government that cleans up this mess then. In a democracy I think it's fair to hold the people liable when the government they elect does something wrong (however it should probably be based on a pattern of violations, not "one bad apple").

mtgx 10y ago
Easier said than done in a country that doesn't value the idea of having multiple parties (and therefore real competition between them). What do you do when one party is racist and the other protects criminal cops? Or worse, if both protect criminal cops, and other government criminals?
- jdavis703 10y ago
  There's no excuse for a dual or single-party system in muni-level politics. In Oakland, CA (and probably other cities) they use non-partisan IRV (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting).
  - terravion 10y ago
    Oakland resident here. Oakland's IRV is terrible because we have no idea who will win the election and even as a relatively informed voter I have no idea who most of the 30-ish mayoral candidates are or what they stand for. I think Oakland shows elections work both ways. One way, we pick leaders who represent our deeply held views. The other, elections force us, the electorate, to face facts about what combination of policies produces a workable governing consensus, and maybe even changes our views to create a consensus. When it comes to Oakland mayor, we just randomly declare a preference in the dark and someone is declared winner with no real way to form a coalition. California's new top two system on the other hand is great. In liberal or conservative areas we get offered two meaningful choices that reflect the ideological split in the area. That is, do we want to be radical progressives or just pro-business liberals? Alternately are we reactionary conservatives or more just chamber of commerce Republicans? This gives real choice to the general election electorate and helps forge meaningful consensus.
randyrand 10y ago
It's a democratic republic. Unions are not democracies either, yet are incredibly strong.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

lolc 10y ago

It's fitting in a way. They handed power to assholes and didn't check back. Though if I read this correctly, some of it will not be paid by the city: "East Cleveland Police Chief Ralph Spotts did not appear at trial. [...] Of the other $12 million in punitive damages, $11 million was found against Spotts himself, DiCello said."

millzlane 10y ago

How does a traffic stop turn into assault, kidnapping, and false imprisonment. Why has this become a norm? The police have a duty to protects us from these exact crimes. If they commit the crimes themselves and we just pay them on admin leave because they deserve due process too. How can we resolve this? Whats to prevent them from doing it. Jailing them isn't working. We are jailing them right? Will it ever stop? We're essentially paying for them to commit crime that we end up paying for with settlements. It takes away from other things in the budget. The city pays settlements, now the city needs money for school programs, and the rest of the public services. Police are working overtime. They get stressed out. They beat some guy up and then the cycle starts over again. The city in turn needs state money, the state needs federal money. They don't have it so they print more up. Somewhere in another part of the country is another state sucking dick for federal money. It's one of the many reasons our deficit is the way it is. At what point do we say enough is enough. We can't keep spending money on this shit. Where is the accountability? I apologize for being crass. But we're literally paying for all of it.