8 ms·
The Parasite Underground
- jdpedrie 10y agoThe author of this article spoke to Russ Roberts about this topic on EconTalk[1] a couple of years ago. [1] http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2014/03/velasquez-manof.html http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2014/03/velasquez-manof.htm...
- middleclick 10y agoVery interesting. Can someone comment if there is actual science behind it or the two cases the article gives can be explained by other non-scientific factors?
- cpncrunch 10y agoIt's plausible, but so far no clinical trials have been done AFAIK. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helminthic_therapy#Research https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helminthic_therapy#Research
- refurb 10y agoAs someone else mentioned, Coronado Biosciences conducted a large, double-blinded study using pig whipworms for ulcerative colitis. There was no difference between the treatment and placebo arms.
- cpncrunch 10y agoMore info here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4374592/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4374592/ It looks like it was for Crohn's.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- Houshalter 10y agoWhat's most interesting is that the placebo was remarkably effective. That seems hard to believe and maybe it is a fluke. Anyway the article said the study hasn't been published so maybe there are more details.
- cpncrunch 10y agoNo that is actually a pretty typical placebo response for diarrhea or bowel movements. See my other comment here for specific details.
- Houshalter 10y agoWell it's still the most interesting part to me. It's crazy that a medical condition as objective as diarrhea or stomach pain can be so heavily influenced by psychology.
- cpncrunch 10y agoYes it is fascinating. It's well established that the stress system modulates bowel motility (via crh) and absorption (via cortisol).
- refurb 10y agoDon't forget that's it's common for autoimmune diseases to wax and wane. Even if a patients get no therapy at all, the disease often gets better for a short period of time.
- cpncrunch 10y agoAlso, stress affects autoimmunity [1], so it's possible that the placebo effect modulated the autoimmune disease itself. [1] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S156899720700170X http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1568997207...
- jvandonsel 10y ago"That seems hard to believe and maybe it is a fluke" Pun intended?
- victoro 10y agoCarl Zimmer's very interesting book Parasite Rex (though now over a decade and a half old) cites some studies on using worms to treat Crohn's disease and googling around yields this a more recent paper published in Science about studies done on mice [1]. [1] Layperson Summary - http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/04/parasitic-worms-may-prevent-crohn-s-disease-altering-bacterial-balance http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/04/parasitic-worms-may-p... [2] Actual Article - http://science.sciencemag.org/content/352/6285/608 http://science.sciencemag.org/content/352/6285/608
- domas 10y agoSubtitle: A shadow network of patients are trying to treat their own debilitating diseases — by infecting themselves with gastrointestinal worms.
- univalent 10y agoGreat Radiolab episode on this subject: http://www.radiolab.org/story/91951-an-update-on-hookworms/ http://www.radiolab.org/story/91951-an-update-on-hookworms/
- w1ntermute 10y agoThe article author's book on the topic: https://www.amazon.com/Epidemic-Absence-Understanding-Allergies-Autoimmune/dp/1439199396 https://www.amazon.com/Epidemic-Absence-Understanding-Allerg...
- kbenson 10y agoI wonder if at some point some of the things we've considered parasites and actively targeted will be considered symbiotes. We don't call out gut bacteria parasites, as there's continuing to be more and more evidence that it plays a strong role in how we function. It makes sense to me that through tens (hundreds) of thousands of years, what initially began as a parasite may have adapted to be more symbiotic, or we might have adapted to make it so. If you can't eliminate a problem, find a way to make it work for you, or at least integrate it so it causes the least amount of problems.
- Aelinsaar 10y agoI think it's a strong argument for why something like an artificial "sentinel" immune system would be such a dream. You could actively keep levels of symbiotic organisms in line, while flushing out undesirables. The same system would need to keep inevitable cancers from getting out of hand as well.
- sliverstorm 10y agoWe don't call gut or skin bacteria parasites mostly because they don't hurt us.
- kbenson 10y agoYes, but I think more important is the distinction that any harm they might do is outweighed by their benefits. Which is what I as alluding to regarding some parasites. We might find they provide a heretofore unknown benefit, and we might consider that parasite in a different light.
- teddyh 10y agoTell that to someone suffering from IBS.
- theparanoid 10y agoThe article buried the lead - "Coronado Biosciences did test Joel Weinstock’s pig whipworms. It ran the largest trials conducted to date, comprising 250 participants with Crohn’s disease. But in contrast to Weinstock’s earlier, smaller studies, which showed an almost miraculous curative effect in Crohn’s — 72 percent experienced remission — these studies showed no benefit at all."
- kbenson 10y agoThat's an interesting data point, but it tells us little of the overall picture. There's so many different parasites, different diseases, and different possible causes of relief[1], that a single study of a single parasite for a single disease doesn't really disprove much beyond possibly that specific combination. Regardless, if we do find some benefit to parasites, I think the correct goal, if possible, is to understand the cause and replicate that without the negatives of the parasites themselves: Loukas and his colleagues have received funding for a larger celiac trial, but he sees the field moving away from the use of live parasites, toward the identification of the molecules they secrete. 1: From a possible general taxing of the immune system relieving autoimmune dysfunction ranging from allergies to more threatening disorders, to intestinal parasites promoting intestinal wall mucus, to parasites promoting a specific type of bacteria which generates useful byproducts.
- lnanek2 10y ago> From a possible general taxing of the immune system relieving autoimmune dysfunction This matches my experience. I have Psoriasis, and the only time I don't have bloody little flakes of skin coming off my hands every day is when I have a cold or some other sort of sickness. So really anything that taxes my immune system is enough to give me some relief, it doesn't require parasites for me.
- jessriedel 10y agoThis is true, and definitely evidence supporting the null hypothesis (that an underground folk remedy doen't actually work, despite stories that layman find compelling). But note that Crohn's and Ulcerative colitis (which Vic had) are different diseases. They are close enough related that about 10% of the time they can't be distinguished, but are pretty clearly distinguished statistically. http://gastro.ucla.edu/body.cfm?id=169 http://gastro.ucla.edu/body.cfm?id=169 Some of same treatments tend to be used for both, but the effectiveness is usually different between them. Given the lack of understanding of the underlying cause of the diseases, it's not clear how much failure of a treatment for one disease tells us about the other.
- 55555 10y agoI did this, because I'm crazy. Ask me anything.
- bllguo 10y agoDid you really? What disease(s) were you treating with the helminths? What were the results? What previous treatments did you try?
- 55555 10y agoI have an unknown autoimmune condition which manifests in sinus issues and gastrointestinal issues (clinically diagnosed with lymphocytic colitis, which is rare to the tune of 0.06% prevalence). Immunological/autoimmune pathways are clearly involved as mast cell stabilizers, antihistamines, and immunomodulators had a strong effect. After exhausting the resources of conventional medicine, I made a list of like 25 things to try that included everything in the world that made sense, ordered from least crazy to most crazy. And eventually I got to the bottom of the list. At that point the only reasons to not do it were pretty silly (shame, fear, etc) so I did it. I've done a lot of "crazy" things in my life that make a lot of rational sense. What people don't understand is that people who do crazy stuff like this are not crazy. They are mostly doing what any reasonable logical person would do. They've just gotten to the bottom of the list. > What were the results? It had a marked significant positive effect on my immune system. A year after taking them I expelled them as (1) it's possible they had a side effect I wasn't enjoying (GI-related) and more importantly, (2) I had since discovered the Autoimmune Paleo Diet which is remarkably effective for managing a wide variety of autoimmune diseases. So the issues I once suffered from are much more manageable since discovering that diet and learning more about that.. Regarding (1), expelling the worms didn't fix the side effect, so it could have been unrelated. To this day I can't say for certain one way or the other.
- bllguo 10y agoCondolences about the condition - happily the diet works. I definitely agree. I don't see it as crazy at all, even though I admittedly haven't been in a similar position. If you don't mind me asking, what else was at the bottom of your list?
- jerryhuang100 10y agoSo maybe we should start to coin the word "parasitOME" as microbiome? I guess the interaction between [ human host <-> parasiitOME (parasites population) <-> parasites' microbiome <-> microbiome ] through immune responses would be the next frontier to be explored > Two years’ worth of hookworms cost $2,500. But at the same time I think that whole home-brew therapeutic parasites thing is kind of an overshoot (or scam?) Maybe just live in a third-world country for 2 weeks or 2 months, eating local street food, raw fruits, drinking local water would be easier and more effective to acquire 'necessary' parasites (along with parasites' cultivation conditions) to subdue such immune system 'imbalance'? Also I don't believe those those home-brew parasites incubators discard or disinfect their extra batch of larvae / embryos or utensils by autoclave or other means - more likely it's just dumped in the toilets and circle to public sewage system. I would not be surprised to see some parasites outbreak in the near future if this is going to be a trend and some home-brew parasites incubators just happen to live near some water treatment plants or upstream some major dams.
- mmagin 10y agoIn much of the developed world, sewage treatment is operated with the assumption that people are regularly putting pathogens in the sewage via their feces.
- jerryhuang100 10y agou will be surprised how often large outbreak of parasites infections there are in "developed world's" public water supply: Sweden [1], US [2]. CDC even has a web page set up for Drinking Water-associated Disease Surveillance. [1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3966397/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3966397/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Water_supply§ion=25#Outbreaks_of_diseases_due_to_contaminated_water_supply https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Water_supply§...
- jacobolus 10y ago> Maybe just live in a third-world country for 2 weeks or 2 months, eating local street food, raw fruits, drinking local water would be easier and more effective to acquire 'necessary' parasites (along with parasites' cultivation conditions) to subdue such immune system 'imbalance'? This is also a good way to make yourself really really sick. You can end up with hepatitis A, amoebic dysentery, cholera, typhoid, etc. Or even if it’s just giardia and cryptosporidium (I assume these are among the “necessary parasites”?) folks who are immune-comporomised can end up in real danger.
- st3v3r 10y agoAs someone with Crohn's, I've wanted to try this since I heard about it. The problem is, with medication, my disease has been in remission for quite a while, with only an occasional flare up. So I feel no reason to mess with it.
- aufel 10y agoJoining these groups is rather trivial. After reading them for about 6-8 months, here's my synopsis. May be useful for Chron's/IBD based on user responses. No actual success in any clinical trials -- members always cite meaningless murine studies. Recently "study" they are citing is just a collection of user-reported results tabulated in a pretty way. Extraordinarily expensive if you live in the USA -- only sold for 3K+ by AIT. Plenty of parents infecting children for any and all autoimmune diseases. Also infecting children for autism (???). Very few members bother to report failure, they just disappear from the forums altogether. Most members are practitioners of extreme alternative medicine, i.e. homeopathy, leeching, anti-EMF, other ungodly pseudo-scientific procedures I've only heard about from there. Anti-vaxx, everything. Quite a few of the success stories that are touted are by individuals treating illnesses that are not recognized by modern medicine or very difficult to define. CFS, fibromyalgia, "total food intolerance", chronic lyme, multiple chemical sensitivities, you get the picture. (some of those are not like the others, my apologies if I offend anyone there) Overall, a very dangerous community with very, very bad advice. Sure, there might be something to autoimmune disorders and parasites, but these communities are spreading dangerous bullshit at best and preying on very desperate people.