4 ms·

I have a handful of friends who left Russia in the early 90s and the pictures they paint of the USSR are highly unflattering in this regard. One, the daughter o

by bhickey 10y ago

I have a handful of friends who left Russia in the early 90s and the pictures they paint of the USSR are highly unflattering in this regard. One, the daughter of Lenin Prize winner, grew up in a cramped two bedroom apartment. My guess is that things were much worse down the social totem pole.

scarmig 10y ago
Well, part of the Communist marketing brand is that everyone equally gets a cramped two bedroom apartment, so it'd be useful to get hard evidence one way or another. From what I've read about Soviet housing in the Krushchev era, though, you were very lucky if you got a cramped two bedroom. Not sure about the 70s and 80s.
- vkou 10y ago
  The Communist marketing brand is that everyone would eventually get an apartment. Once communism is achieved, that is.
  - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
    That sounds more like capitalism, which says that you might someday earn a one-bedroom condo, if you're innovative enough to start a company and get a good exit.
    - eru 10y ago
      Marketing isn't very creative.. Christianity and some other religions also promise some utopia in the future.
    - ctdonath 10y ago
      No, capitalism is realizing that Zillow.com can find you a host of cheap properties in minutes, and HomeDepot.com or Tumbleweed.com can put a house on it cheap. ...while you start a company.
      - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
        You're dodging my actual point, which the other replier definitely understood. Once Upon a Time, we Westerners looked at Communism and laughed. We justified our system (democracy for the state, capitalism for the economy) by pointing out all the obvious material benefits we reaped from it: * High economic growth * Cheap, varied, available, high-quality consumer goods * High and climbing wages * A class structure that looked more like a Gaussian curve than an exponential distribution, with greater actually-existing, de-facto equality than the Communist countries * Workers' rights and the free formation of unions * Public infrastructure, parks, and transit * Cheap, acceptable housing for families, leading to widespread owner-occupancy becoming the norm, something rarely seen in civilized human history * Ever-climbing life expectancies at birth, thanks to rigorous public health, sanitation, and disease control measures In contrast, the Eastern Bloc promised that Real Soon Now, actually-existing socialism would be transformed into Full Communism, and people could have nice things. All they had to do was make a few sacrifices today to defeat the fascist capitalists and experience great rewards tomorrow! They promised "jam tomorrow" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jam_tomorrow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jam_tomorrow), but we had jam today. Whereas nowadays, the spectrum of jam-promises has shifted. Nowadays, the capitalist West promises its people, "Jam tomorrow, for the deserving", while most of the Second and Third World have switched to promising, "Jam never, it was always a lie meant to lead you away from God and Putin." We can still kinda say we've got the cheap, widespread consumer goods, but not so much the rest of it.
        eru 10y ago
        Remember https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_will_bury_you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_will_bury_you and Sputnik? Communism seemed to have higher growth rates for a while.
csydas 10y ago
Things have, for better or worse, changed pretty dramatically, at least from my experiences. I've been in Russia with my partner for about 3 years now, and we've lived in St. Petersburg, Moscow, and for a brief time, in Pereslavl. While the apartments aren't huge by comparison to most houses in the US, they are pretty comfortable, though the quality will vary depending on the particular building and region you live in. Most of the buildings appear to be the same that were built during the USSR, it's just the internals were remodeled with more modern amenities. It can take a little getting used to, living in somewhat cramped quarters, but for me anyways, I've always had fairly small places to live growing up, whether it was living in a 3 bedroom with 6 people in college, my cheapo first apartment, I guess it's more just something you get used to. Even now, my partner and I live with her mom/aunt in a 3 bedroom apartment in SPB and, aside from occasionally stumbling across each other in the kitchen and funny battles for the bathroom, we get by just fine.
- cema 10y ago
  funny battles for the bathroom Not so funny as soon as you have children.
  - csydas 10y ago
    heh, meant it sarcastically. Both where I live now and growing up, I've been in situations where it's 1 bathroom for 5 and 4 people respectively, and a queue forming in your own home for the toilet just gets silly, even if it's frustrating.

by bhickey 10y ago

scarmig 10y ago

Well, part of the Communist marketing brand is that everyone equally gets a cramped two bedroom apartment, so it'd be useful to get hard evidence one way or another. From what I've read about Soviet housing in the Krushchev era, though, you were very lucky if you got a cramped two bedroom. Not sure about the 70s and 80s.

vkou 10y ago
The Communist marketing brand is that everyone would eventually get an apartment. Once communism is achieved, that is.
- eli_gottlieb 10y ago
  That sounds more like capitalism, which says that you might someday earn a one-bedroom condo, if you're innovative enough to start a company and get a good exit.
  - eru 10y ago
    Marketing isn't very creative.. Christianity and some other religions also promise some utopia in the future.
  - ctdonath 10y ago
    No, capitalism is realizing that Zillow.com can find you a host of cheap properties in minutes, and HomeDepot.com or Tumbleweed.com can put a house on it cheap. ...while you start a company.
    - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
      You're dodging my actual point, which the other replier definitely understood. Once Upon a Time, we Westerners looked at Communism and laughed. We justified our system (democracy for the state, capitalism for the economy) by pointing out all the obvious material benefits we reaped from it: * High economic growth * Cheap, varied, available, high-quality consumer goods * High and climbing wages * A class structure that looked more like a Gaussian curve than an exponential distribution, with greater actually-existing, de-facto equality than the Communist countries * Workers' rights and the free formation of unions * Public infrastructure, parks, and transit * Cheap, acceptable housing for families, leading to widespread owner-occupancy becoming the norm, something rarely seen in civilized human history * Ever-climbing life expectancies at birth, thanks to rigorous public health, sanitation, and disease control measures In contrast, the Eastern Bloc promised that Real Soon Now, actually-existing socialism would be transformed into Full Communism, and people could have nice things. All they had to do was make a few sacrifices today to defeat the fascist capitalists and experience great rewards tomorrow! They promised "jam tomorrow" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jam_tomorrow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jam_tomorrow), but we had jam today. Whereas nowadays, the spectrum of jam-promises has shifted. Nowadays, the capitalist West promises its people, "Jam tomorrow, for the deserving", while most of the Second and Third World have switched to promising, "Jam never, it was always a lie meant to lead you away from God and Putin." We can still kinda say we've got the cheap, widespread consumer goods, but not so much the rest of it.
      - eru 10y ago
        Remember https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_will_bury_you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_will_bury_you and Sputnik? Communism seemed to have higher growth rates for a while.

csydas 10y ago

Things have, for better or worse, changed pretty dramatically, at least from my experiences. I've been in Russia with my partner for about 3 years now, and we've lived in St. Petersburg, Moscow, and for a brief time, in Pereslavl. While the apartments aren't huge by comparison to most houses in the US, they are pretty comfortable, though the quality will vary depending on the particular building and region you live in. Most of the buildings appear to be the same that were built during the USSR, it's just the internals were remodeled with more modern amenities. It can take a little getting used to, living in somewhat cramped quarters, but for me anyways, I've always had fairly small places to live growing up, whether it was living in a 3 bedroom with 6 people in college, my cheapo first apartment, I guess it's more just something you get used to. Even now, my partner and I live with her mom/aunt in a 3 bedroom apartment in SPB and, aside from occasionally stumbling across each other in the kitchen and funny battles for the bathroom, we get by just fine.

cema 10y ago
funny battles for the bathroom Not so funny as soon as you have children.
- csydas 10y ago
  heh, meant it sarcastically. Both where I live now and growing up, I've been in situations where it's 1 bathroom for 5 and 4 people respectively, and a queue forming in your own home for the toilet just gets silly, even if it's frustrating.