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> "i fail to see any reason to assume the four canon gospels are 'accurate'" But they are certainly insightful as to the beliefs of the early church, whether o

> "i fail to see any reason to assume the four canon gospels are 'accurate'" But they are certainly insightful as to the beliefs of the early church, whether or not they're accurate regarding an actual historical figure named Jesus. Judas and Mary fail on both counts, though they do give some insight into a secretive movement from the 2nd or 3rd century that focused on ideas about "hidden knowledge". > "it will present bias that may inform your definitions" In other words, it's a way to be accusatory. I gave my definitions; you can take exception to them directly instead of via the roundabout approach of questioning my impartiality.

justifier 10y ago
> But they are certainly insightful as to the beliefs of the early church this i can agree with, and is also what i take issue with.. the church intentionally left these other ideas out of their beliefs so of course they would do little in directly granting insight to the beliefs of the early church, but indirectly they do present insight > Does not bring any particular degree of enlightenment regarding the life or teachings of Jesus but this i completely disagree with, that excerpt from mary is very enlightening to the life and teaching of jesus just for clarity: > I prefer discussion of ideas, not appeals to authority. are you implying that admitting you believe would grant you the authority by which to appeal? also, it feels like you are only selectively discussing ideas by refusing to answer the question while espousing others some other ideas, interesting to discuss: do you think jesus and mary existed as these texts describe? was jesus a saviour and son of a god? do you think jesus discussed somethings only with mary as the gospel of mary excerpt implies? do you think jesus was married to mary? do you think a definitive answer one way or another would, or should, bear consequence for the christian religion?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- nitrogen 10y ago
  I definitely think these are the most interesting questions one can ask of early Christian scholarship, but they appear from the outside to be pursued solely by those with an ulterior reason for doing so, and it seems very little progress has been made on resolving these questions over the last 1800-2000 years. So FWIW, I don't think this comment should have been downvoted to gray.
- lotharbot 10y ago
  > "are you implying that admitting you believe would grant you the authority by which to appeal?" No, I'm implying that trying to label either of us with some particular belief system would result in pointless argumentation that would take the form of "thus-and-such tradition is wrong" rather than discussing the actual ideas being presented. "Oh, you're a believer and thus have been corrupted" or "oh, you're a gnostic and thus can't be trusted" or whatever. That makes for uninteresting and unenlightening conversation. So I keep redirecting us back to the ideas -- what does the historical/manuscript evidence point to? > "the church intentionally left these other ideas out of their beliefs" This statement presupposes a timeline in which the ideas in Judas/Mary were present simultaneously with the ideas in canonical and orthodox sources -- that these were two competing traditions in the early days after Jesus' life, and that one became stronger and "suppressed" the other. That simply doesn't match with the historical data. The actual records we have from inside and outside of early Christianity are filled with disputes, and with criticisms of "false teachings". Yet no disputes or criticisms of gnostic-style (gospels of Judas/Mary) teachings show up until the late 2nd century -- as if those appeared on the scene as brand new teachings, not that they had been competing alongside Christianity. There are also indications from various external (Jewish and Roman) historians that Christianity was relatively powerless, not in position to be able to oppress or destroy rival belief systems up until much later -- and even at its height, the powerful (Constantine, Rome, etc.) had limited reach relative to the spread of writings related to Christianity. There were lots and lots of disputes in early Christianity, and one particular sect eventually "won". But the disputes weren't about the things gnostic writings talk about; those are a later, separate movement that happened to use names from Jewish/Christian sources. As for your specific questions: > "do you think jesus and mary existed as these texts describe? was jesus a saviour and son of a god?" What I believe is irrelevant. What matters when addressing the various manuscripts is that there's clear indication that early Christians believed Jesus and Mary (Magdalene, presumably) existed as described in the canonical texts, and that Jesus was both the Savior and Divine in some way. And there's a whole lot of evidence that the next 3-4 centuries were filled with argumentation over exactly what that meant. There is little indication that Mary was a particularly significant figure, though plenty of indication that other women (including Jesus' mother Mary) held prominent roles in the early church. > "do you think jesus discussed somethings only with mary" Not in the gnostic sense of giving "secret knowledge" only to Mary, or only to Judas, or only to Thomas. The earliest writings about Jesus show him to be a reasonably public teacher, in a traditional Rabbinic style. They show Jesus to have repeated important teachings to different crowds. I also believe Jesus' teachings would be recognizable (but potentially blasphemous) to first-century Jews -- note that many of the questions Jesus addresses in the canonical gospels are questions of Jewish interest, particularly relating to the Roman occupation and some of the major schools of thought regarding the practice of the Jewish religion. The "secret knowledge" expressed in Mary/Judas is very much grounded in a synthesis of Greek/Egyptian ideas that originated at least a century later and probably closer to two. > "do you think jesus was married to mary? do you think a definitive answer one way or another would, or should, bear consequence for the christian religion?" I don't think there's any legitimate evidence suggesting such a marriage. But the main consequence it would have on the Christian religion if such a thing were established would be regarding the relation of Jesus to "the church" as a groom and bride; it would not shift any significant doctrinal points regarding, for example, the importance of women. (Those who believe it would are, I believe, misled by certain 20th-century arguments within some segments of Christianity, which are mostly a result of the American church being out of touch with history rather than a result of early Christian doctrine placing women in a subordinate role.)
Retric 10y ago
I don't think the early Christianity was monolithic enough to say a pice of text represents it's beliefs. Looking back you can find some threads that where continued, but nothing suggests they where dominant in that time period.
- lotharbot 10y ago
  > "I don't think the early Christianity was monolithic enough to say a pice of text represents it's beliefs." It's clear from most early Christian writings that there were significant disagreements among different parts of Christianity, including its leadership. Even within canonical texts, there are several places where an author takes the time to criticize someone else's doctrine (for example, there's one famous passage where Paul says of those who require circumcision that they should "cut it all off".) So when I say that those early writings are representative of the beliefs, I don't mean it in the sense of being monolithic, but in the sense of showing what sort of issues were treated as uncontroversial or as background information versus what sort of issues were argued over using strong language. Most of the arguments are, not surprisingly, issues that any scholar of second temple Judaism would recognize. You can certainly pick up both on threads that were continued, and threads that did not persist. But the particular threads that are seen in writings like Judas and Mary aren't early Christian threads, they're late arrivals from some other tradition. They don't show up, even to be criticized, in any of the oldest writings (it's not until late second century that authors like Irenaeus start criticizing those particular beliefs.) They don't use Jewish literary structures in the way they're taught, but rather, distinctly Greek structures. They're disconnected from history and geography -- for example, the "Gospel of Judas" names only one physical place (the region of Judea) and no people other than Jesus, Judas, Adam, and Eve, and the other names it does use (for angels/spirits/heavenly realms) don't resemble Hebrew or Aramaic names. There are no quotations of Jewish scripture and no references to major issues of debate or concern at the time (such as the Roman occupation, the relationship of Jews to Samaritans, or arguments between Hillel and Shammai over issues like divorce.) In short, the gospels of Judas and Mary aren't first-century Jewish writings by members of a sect that split from Judaism because of the teachings of a Jewish rabbi; they're at best late second-century Greek/Egyptian-mixed writings that use a handful of Jewish names. If you want insight into that first-century Jewish-offshoot religion that we call "Christianity", look to the Biblical canon, plus the Didache, Barnabas, Clement, Shepherd of Hermas, Tacitus (discussed in detail at the ECW link above), the Signs Gospel, Polycarp, and Ignatius, and look at the sort of arguments they get into and the things they emphasize and the things they criticize. It's not monolithic, but there are obvious patterns.

justifier 10y ago

> But they are certainly insightful as to the beliefs of the early church this i can agree with, and is also what i take issue with.. the church intentionally left these other ideas out of their beliefs so of course they would do little in directly granting insight to the beliefs of the early church, but indirectly they do present insight > Does not bring any particular degree of enlightenment regarding the life or teachings of Jesus but this i completely disagree with, that excerpt from mary is very enlightening to the life and teaching of jesus just for clarity: > I prefer discussion of ideas, not appeals to authority. are you implying that admitting you believe would grant you the authority by which to appeal? also, it feels like you are only selectively discussing ideas by refusing to answer the question while espousing others some other ideas, interesting to discuss: do you think jesus and mary existed as these texts describe? was jesus a saviour and son of a god? do you think jesus discussed somethings only with mary as the gospel of mary excerpt implies? do you think jesus was married to mary? do you think a definitive answer one way or another would, or should, bear consequence for the christian religion?

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
nitrogen 10y ago
I definitely think these are the most interesting questions one can ask of early Christian scholarship, but they appear from the outside to be pursued solely by those with an ulterior reason for doing so, and it seems very little progress has been made on resolving these questions over the last 1800-2000 years. So FWIW, I don't think this comment should have been downvoted to gray.
lotharbot 10y ago
> "are you implying that admitting you believe would grant you the authority by which to appeal?" No, I'm implying that trying to label either of us with some particular belief system would result in pointless argumentation that would take the form of "thus-and-such tradition is wrong" rather than discussing the actual ideas being presented. "Oh, you're a believer and thus have been corrupted" or "oh, you're a gnostic and thus can't be trusted" or whatever. That makes for uninteresting and unenlightening conversation. So I keep redirecting us back to the ideas -- what does the historical/manuscript evidence point to? > "the church intentionally left these other ideas out of their beliefs" This statement presupposes a timeline in which the ideas in Judas/Mary were present simultaneously with the ideas in canonical and orthodox sources -- that these were two competing traditions in the early days after Jesus' life, and that one became stronger and "suppressed" the other. That simply doesn't match with the historical data. The actual records we have from inside and outside of early Christianity are filled with disputes, and with criticisms of "false teachings". Yet no disputes or criticisms of gnostic-style (gospels of Judas/Mary) teachings show up until the late 2nd century -- as if those appeared on the scene as brand new teachings, not that they had been competing alongside Christianity. There are also indications from various external (Jewish and Roman) historians that Christianity was relatively powerless, not in position to be able to oppress or destroy rival belief systems up until much later -- and even at its height, the powerful (Constantine, Rome, etc.) had limited reach relative to the spread of writings related to Christianity. There were lots and lots of disputes in early Christianity, and one particular sect eventually "won". But the disputes weren't about the things gnostic writings talk about; those are a later, separate movement that happened to use names from Jewish/Christian sources. As for your specific questions: > "do you think jesus and mary existed as these texts describe? was jesus a saviour and son of a god?" What I believe is irrelevant. What matters when addressing the various manuscripts is that there's clear indication that early Christians believed Jesus and Mary (Magdalene, presumably) existed as described in the canonical texts, and that Jesus was both the Savior and Divine in some way. And there's a whole lot of evidence that the next 3-4 centuries were filled with argumentation over exactly what that meant. There is little indication that Mary was a particularly significant figure, though plenty of indication that other women (including Jesus' mother Mary) held prominent roles in the early church. > "do you think jesus discussed somethings only with mary" Not in the gnostic sense of giving "secret knowledge" only to Mary, or only to Judas, or only to Thomas. The earliest writings about Jesus show him to be a reasonably public teacher, in a traditional Rabbinic style. They show Jesus to have repeated important teachings to different crowds. I also believe Jesus' teachings would be recognizable (but potentially blasphemous) to first-century Jews -- note that many of the questions Jesus addresses in the canonical gospels are questions of Jewish interest, particularly relating to the Roman occupation and some of the major schools of thought regarding the practice of the Jewish religion. The "secret knowledge" expressed in Mary/Judas is very much grounded in a synthesis of Greek/Egyptian ideas that originated at least a century later and probably closer to two. > "do you think jesus was married to mary? do you think a definitive answer one way or another would, or should, bear consequence for the christian religion?" I don't think there's any legitimate evidence suggesting such a marriage. But the main consequence it would have on the Christian religion if such a thing were established would be regarding the relation of Jesus to "the church" as a groom and bride; it would not shift any significant doctrinal points regarding, for example, the importance of women. (Those who believe it would are, I believe, misled by certain 20th-century arguments within some segments of Christianity, which are mostly a result of the American church being out of touch with history rather than a result of early Christian doctrine placing women in a subordinate role.)

Retric 10y ago

I don't think the early Christianity was monolithic enough to say a pice of text represents it's beliefs. Looking back you can find some threads that where continued, but nothing suggests they where dominant in that time period.

lotharbot 10y ago
> "I don't think the early Christianity was monolithic enough to say a pice of text represents it's beliefs." It's clear from most early Christian writings that there were significant disagreements among different parts of Christianity, including its leadership. Even within canonical texts, there are several places where an author takes the time to criticize someone else's doctrine (for example, there's one famous passage where Paul says of those who require circumcision that they should "cut it all off".) So when I say that those early writings are representative of the beliefs, I don't mean it in the sense of being monolithic, but in the sense of showing what sort of issues were treated as uncontroversial or as background information versus what sort of issues were argued over using strong language. Most of the arguments are, not surprisingly, issues that any scholar of second temple Judaism would recognize. You can certainly pick up both on threads that were continued, and threads that did not persist. But the particular threads that are seen in writings like Judas and Mary aren't early Christian threads, they're late arrivals from some other tradition. They don't show up, even to be criticized, in any of the oldest writings (it's not until late second century that authors like Irenaeus start criticizing those particular beliefs.) They don't use Jewish literary structures in the way they're taught, but rather, distinctly Greek structures. They're disconnected from history and geography -- for example, the "Gospel of Judas" names only one physical place (the region of Judea) and no people other than Jesus, Judas, Adam, and Eve, and the other names it does use (for angels/spirits/heavenly realms) don't resemble Hebrew or Aramaic names. There are no quotations of Jewish scripture and no references to major issues of debate or concern at the time (such as the Roman occupation, the relationship of Jews to Samaritans, or arguments between Hillel and Shammai over issues like divorce.) In short, the gospels of Judas and Mary aren't first-century Jewish writings by members of a sect that split from Judaism because of the teachings of a Jewish rabbi; they're at best late second-century Greek/Egyptian-mixed writings that use a handful of Jewish names. If you want insight into that first-century Jewish-offshoot religion that we call "Christianity", look to the Biblical canon, plus the Didache, Barnabas, Clement, Shepherd of Hermas, Tacitus (discussed in detail at the ECW link above), the Signs Gospel, Polycarp, and Ignatius, and look at the sort of arguments they get into and the things they emphasize and the things they criticize. It's not monolithic, but there are obvious patterns.