9 ms·

Cars are getting weird

95 points by jordigh 10y ago

walrus01 10y ago
I don't think it's "cars" are getting weird, it's just this one weird Tesla and their business model... The article says: "Cars are big computers, and have been for a while" Doesn't mean we need to treat them like software development platforms. Most of the challenges are still at OSI layer 1 and most of the problems to deal with are mechanical: Tire still wear out, disc brakes still function much as they did 10 or 15 years ago (and wear out), wheel bearings, hydraulic systems for power steering, etc. Given that cars have much longer lifespans than typical consumer electronics, the last thing I want is a car with a built in 10" touchscreen running some ancient version of Android. I'd rather have some sort of standardized modular system where I can put my own tablet-sized computer in an appropriate place and have it get power, audio sync with the car's speakers. Look at the crap infotainment systems built into 2015 and 2016 model Toyotas, Hondas and Nissans and compare it with a good $400 Android 6.x tablet. Do you really want that same un-updated OS and software for ten years? The idea of the "double DIN" size car stereo mounting location was a good one, but we need something bigger than this, and with standardized cable connectors: http://www.autodvdgps.com/ebay/ZC620/ebay-3.jpg http://www.autodvdgps.com/ebay/ZC620/ebay-3.jpg Carmakers, please find a way to separate the 'infotainment' part of the car's computer from the embedded computer that's actually required for the car to run (engine timing/valves, fuel injectors, mixture, emissions monitoring, intake oxygen sensor, etc).
- jacquesm 10y ago
  Yes, but API's for cars are not going to be very popular with the manufacturers, who would like you to pay big $ for their crappy un-upgradeable bs. This is one reason why you'll upgrade your whole car, after all.
  - aioprisan 10y ago
    I would image they'll go through the same evolution that was brought on by the competition from Android devices: cheap, full-features, and massively popular.
  - aioprisan 10y ago
    I would image they'll go through the same evolution that was brought on by the competition from Android devices: cheap, full-features, and massively popular.
- Reason077 10y ago
  the last thing I want is a car with a built in 10" touchscreen running some ancient version of Android... Do you really want that same un-updated OS and software for ten years? One of the nice things about Tesla is their regular, free software updates. Even the earliest Tesla Model S models can be updated to the latest software. You get all the features that the 2016 Teslas have, except of course where the required hardware is not present (like Autopilot).
  - dragontamer 10y ago
    Or in cases as directly described in the post: like when Tesla uses software-limits to prevent the car from using the whole battery... and charges you $9000 for the rights to use the whole battery as it was designed.
  - walrus01 10y ago
    In things like smart TVs, smart fridges with LCDs on them, and infotainment systems in cars, this is sadly the exception and not the norm. Hardware-oriented manufacturers push a product out the door and things frequently get little or no updated after that. I'm willing to bet money that in ten years from now, a lot of 2016/2017 model year Toyotas that ship today with some sort of infotainment touchscreen system in them will be still running the exact same software. In fifteen years from now such cars will look as quaint as the cars from the 1980s with full LED dashes: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Vfd_car.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Vfd_car....
    - toomuchtodo 10y ago
      Auto manufacturers are restricted from OTA updates due to agreements with their dealer networks. Tesla has no such restriction.
      - kirykl 10y ago
        Not true http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-36478641 http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-36478641
- ultimoo 10y ago
  Agreed. I recently got a Pioneer 4100 NEX aftermarket CarPlay device fitted in my 2010 Camry just for this. Unfortunately, CarPlay itself has many usability issues that have not allowed me to use the system the way I had imagined.
  - kylec 10y ago
    This is a bit of a tangent, but could you expand on that? I'm interested in getting CarPlay in my next car, but I'd like to know what some of the limitations and downsides are.
  - DKnoll 10y ago
    Are you on Android? If you are I assume you're referring to being locked into the Pioneer interface and compatible apps. There is actually a way to use the native Android interface if you have a rooted device: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2451980 http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2451980 I do not use this personally, but I was looking into the Pioneer 4100 NEX myself and plan to buy one after finding this workaround.
  - a2tech 10y ago
    I'd love to hear more about this-I have a 2009 Camry hybrid that has a janky screen that I've been thinking about replacing with a more modern audio device.
- koenigdavidmj 10y ago
  > disc brakes still function much as they did 10 or 15 years ago (and wear out) Actually, regenerative breaking means they last quite a bit longer.
  - barrkel 10y ago
    Brake pads are cheap, discs aren't very cheap but are still reasonable. A regenerative braking system? I'll bet that's a lot more expensive.
    - pedrocr 10y ago
      Shouldn't be actually. The regenerative braking system on an electric car is just the regular drive train. The energy just flows in reverse. The wheels drive the transmission that drives the motor that charges the battery.
    - Reason077 10y ago
      In an electric vehicle, regenerative braking is free. It's just the motor turning kinetic energy into electric energy, rather than the other way around. There aren't really any extra parts or systems involved.
- ansible 10y ago
  > I'd rather have some sort of standardized modular system where I can put my own tablet-sized computer in an appropriate place and have it get power, audio sync with the car's speakers. Oh my gosh yes! The car should be the peripheral, not the main compute device. Is it a big deal to plug in a 10-year old USB mouse into your computer? No, because that is a well-defined interface. Ditto for some other peripherals. This is what I'd like my car to be. I don't think we'll see that anytime soon though. Unless everyone gets on-board with a Bluetooth standard that exposes sufficient functions to the phone/tablet to be useful.
  - kylecordes 10y ago
    Probably everyone here would like something like this. But the decisions aren't going to be made by the sort of people who read this, they're going to be made by auto marketing executives. Then they're going to operate in an environment regulated according to lobbying by automakers. We're going to get auto electronics with software that becomes obsolete about as fast as a typical Android smart phone. I realistically think that when the major legacy automakers ship something vaguely similar to a Tesla dashboard, the best a buyer can hope for is that it remains vaguely updated for a year or two, and then only critical vehicle safety changes might be made forever thereafter. But you can also look at this and the point of view of carmakers. What an amazing boon to sales. This is a way to finally solve the ultimate problem of selling cars today. A car you make today has to compete with the extremely good car you made five years ago that still works great, still looks great, and is much much cheaper.
    - seanp2k2 10y ago
      This makes tons of sense, especially in these early days of self-driving vehicles. There are of course enthusiasts who will want nothing to do with self-driving until the very end when their manual gearboxes are ripped from their cold, dead hands, who would honestly prefer precisely zero touch screens in their current and future vehicles (I consider myself part of this group). We're a small minority though, and as evidenced by how many cars are still available in the US with even the option to row your own, I don't think it's going to stop any manufacturer from eliminating the possibility of manual control entirely within the next few decades.
- dv_dt 10y ago
  I don't even want a modular computer slot - I just want a built-in 'remote' display panel & speakers. Just setup a peripherial that can be wirelessly or usb/lightning cable linked that also transmits the touch info back to my phone and plays sound. Maybe a switch to flip the display to access direct car controls (but really just give me hard-buttons/dials etc for climate control and keep the consumer electronic part simple and separate). Extra points if there's a standard for sending car control api calls back and forth to the phone, but 90% of utility could just be handled with a remote touch display.
  - ygjb-dupe 10y ago
    Do you think those are physical switches in cars with tactile components? All of that UX stuff is still backed by a controller. If they are going to proved a remote display, i would prefer those pieces to be integrated so that if I move my mobile device to a different vehicle, then that vehicle imports my settings. While we are wishing for horses, we might as well make them unicorns :D
    - Natanael_L 10y ago
      That's basically Android Auto.
  - espes 10y ago
    You are exactly describing Apple CarPlay and Android Auto
  - Natanael_L 10y ago
    Why not both? Eventually whatever connection you're using will be dated and considered inefficient crap. Would you want to have to deal with Bluetooth 1.0 today? Use a standard modular platform so you can hook up whatever SoC you like. Whenever the old one gets dated, upgrade it and get all the latest fancy radios.
    - dv_dt 10y ago
      A modular platform is a much fatter interface than a display + touch peripheral. To me larger, more complex interface is more likely to go out of date and focused minimal interfaces last longer. People are still using VGA today, and will be using HDMI/DVI for a long long time. Whatever I carry as a phone is going to be updated much more frequently than my car or even a radio/consumer electronics module in my car.
- WalterBright 10y ago
  I'd like my car computer software to be re-copied from ROM every time the car is started. The ROMs will only be updateable by someone who has physical access to the car so they can push the physical "write enable" switch. I.e. not a software "write enable" switch.
  - kevin_thibedeau 10y ago
    Just disconnect or shield the wifi or cell antenna used for remote access. For bonus points plumb in a repeater/firewall to filter any traffic you want.
    - Silhouette 10y ago
      This is a cute hacker-mindset solution until it voids your warranty and/or you don't get an update you actually did want to keep your car safe. The solution to this issue isn't treating the car manufacturer as a hostile party and trying weird tricks to circumvent their future actions. The solution is ensuring that the car manufacturer isn't hostile in the first place. Ideally I'd like to do that with market forces, but that requires the average consumer to understand a lot more about the technology and its implications than is realistic so they can protect themselves. A more realistic alternative is probably statutory regulation and penalties for non-compliance that can become an existential threat to the manufacturer's business.
      - WalterBright 10y ago
        I'm more concerned with stopping hacker attacks and malware infestations. Hence the physical write-enable switch.
        Silhouette 10y ago
        I completely agree. I'm firmly in the "do not want" camp with a lot of this stuff. I find very few of the modern electronic distractions to be useful or desirable anyway, and I find approximately none of them useful or desirable enough to justify risking safety, security or privacy.
- OscarCunningham 10y ago
  Sadly these are the exact reasons why it won't be modular. They can force you to buy a new car just by stopping support for its operating system.
  - chrismcb 10y ago
    The car won't stop working just because they do updating the software. At least in America they have to provide parts for at least 10 years. And eventually they won't be able to continue to yell copyright to prevent people from updating the software
    - superuser2 10y ago
      If the software is internet-facing (hint: it is) and contains unpatched vulnerabilities, it could easily be made to stop working by a drive-by (hah) script kiddie attack.
    - xg15 10y ago
      This is actually an interesting question when combined with OTA updates. Could (auto maker of your choice) theoretically supply all the parts you want but deny you from using them via software blocks? Or would that be illegal?
    - ArkyBeagle 10y ago
      There are people with John Deere tractors who claim they can no longer use said tractors because the tractor's owner won't pay for an authorized tech to come out and plug into the tractor. Because farmers have to be frugal. So maybe they can yell copyright. On the other hand, things with engines can hurt people so you cannot allow unconstrained access to that port. Safety, IP and "who owns what" will make things more interesting as things emerge.
  - 50CNT 10y ago
    Cars aren't iPhones though. Let's assume that the manufacturer supports the OS for 2 years and let's take the Nissan Versa 2016, which has the lowest cost to own of any car. Sticker Price I found was $12,825 ,so let's go with that. Cost to Own for 5 years I found is $28,855. I assume this includes depreciation and that the car fully depreciates in 5 years. If the car lasts for 2 years, the monthly cost comes down to $796/month. If the car lasts for 5, the monthly cost is $476/month, which is a little more than half. Now this is the most budget new car I could find. Straight up doubles in cost. Or you get the situation where people just decide to drive with the legacy version anyways, which sounds a lot like a literal ton of Windows XP at 50mph. And all because you couldn't come up with a universal plug for car entertainment systems.
- moron4hire 10y ago
  Theoretically, that standardized system is called CANBUS, but companies like Toyota think it should be encrypted and out of your reach.
  - Silhouette 10y ago
    Of all the innovations in modern auto design, I'm not sure that's the one I'd go for. IIRC, a CAN bus design is essentially a jazz model for connecting different subsystems with no built-in security standards. For some reason, I'm not sure externally connected hardware, OTA-updated software, a vehicle's essential mechanical control systems, and implicitly trusted access from everywhere to everything via a centralised bus is a good combination. Some of the relevant technology is patent-encumbered as well, which is rarely an ideal basis for standardisation and interoperability IMHO.
  - ams6110 10y ago
    I think that's what my old Chrysler had. The one where when it failed, absolutely every electrical accessory went dead at the same time. HVAC, radio, wipers, turn signals, tailights. The only thing that still worked was the engine management computer (it still ran fine) and the headlights which seemed to be wired directly. I think the brake lights also worked but I'm not sure.
- douche 10y ago
  I would really like a 100% mechanical automobile, with no computers involved, designed such that when something breaks and you're fifty miles away from anything, you can actually crawl underneath and fix it. Analog radio, crank windows, keyhole locks on every door, real guages. I'll concede the electric starter and the windshield wipers, since I'm not that nostalgic for the days of the Model T. Completely off-topic, but if I saw a new truck with the old-style floor-mounted stomp pedal for the dimmer switch, it'd almost be a shut-up-and-take-my-money situation. I cannot comprehend why automakers keep piling more stuff into the steering wheel. Some of the little sedans have handles and buttons coming off them every which way.
  - tadfisher 10y ago
    I've found computer-controlled electronic fuel injection much more reliable than carburetors. And OBDII is very handy for diagnosing mechanical problems, even with the manufacturer idiosyncrasies.
    - nommm-nommm 10y ago
      I sense some rose colored glasses. Cars are so much more reliable than they were even 25 years ago. Reliable and longer lasting. My first car broke down if you looked at it wrong. My current car does not have that problem even though it is just as old/has just as many miles on it than my first car did at the time. Breaking down on the side of the road used to be a common part of my life, now it hasn't happened to me in the last 8 years.
    - vlehto 10y ago
      The reason for that increased reliability is probably because of pump pressure, not controls. Direct injection has several hundred bar working pressure and a separate filter can be used because of such pressure. Traditional float controlled carburetor probably doesn't work because there is some foreign object stuck in the duct. You cant use heavy filtering because the pressures are almost atmospheric.
  - sargun 10y ago
    Why would you want that? How often does your car actually break? What computer-controlled components break in it?
- Bromskloss 10y ago
  I just want a car that still runs even if all its electronics (not really counting ignition here) are fried.
  - 2muchcoffeeman 10y ago
    I had a 2003 Camry. I recently bought a 2nd hand 2014 Camry. I have not done any research, but I swear that the car is magically doing things for me. Eg. When the parking break was on and you forgot and tried to drive, the 2003 had some resistance. On the 2014, it seems that it disengages the brake for you if you are not in Park. Which can be annoying if you have to stop on an incline with traffic. It also seems to regulate your speed in very wet conditions. On a straight road, in moderate rain, it definitely feels like I need to push the accelerator down more to get up to speed. I admit the 2014 model is nicer to drive, but I don't know what will happen if the electronics get fried.
    - slededit 10y ago
      The speed regulator part is probably the traction control. Mandatory on all 2013 and up models.
- yareally 10y ago
  > "Carmakers, please find a way to separate the 'infotainment' part of the car's computer from the embedded computer that's actually required for the car to run" They have, sorta (but it's still rather limited in functionality): https://www.android.com/auto/ https://www.android.com/auto/ Android Auto and I believe Apple Car Play both run totally from your phone/tablet, with the car just being a view screen. Thus, you get updates when your phone updates.
- Tiksi 10y ago
  >I'd rather have some sort of standardized modular system where I can put my own tablet-sized computer in an appropriate place and have it get power, audio sync with the car's speakers I did pretty much this in my car, and it was surprisingly easy. ~7 inch tablets are just about the same size as Double DIN radios, so a little but of modification to the mounting bracket, some wiring, and a used Nexus 7 I picked up on ebay got me this: http://paste.click/RILfPr http://paste.click/RILfPr It's hooked into the car's speakers via a USB dac and a small amp, and pulls sensor data from the OBDII port with a cheap bluetooth scantool, but otherwise is completely independent of the car's systems. Turns on and off instantly with the car's power thanks to Timur's Kernel (super low power standby really, but the battery drains isn't much different than having it completely off). I also attached a wireless remote via OTG so I don't have to mess with the touchscreen for simple things like volume and media controls while driving. So it's definitely a viable option. I'm surprised no one has come out with a standardized D-DIN to <popular tablet> bracket yet.
- seanp2k2 10y ago
  Sadly, this is unlikely to happen since car makers can up sell cars based on the software they ship with. Aside from bugs, there's little motivation to ever update that or release newer versions compatible with older models. We even see the same forces in action with the aforementioned android tablets. Consider how long the typical manufacturer releases android upgrades for a given model. It's typically a year or less.
- ArkyBeagle 10y ago
  How about we don't have "infotainment" in cars? The cumudgeonly John Muir ( who wrote "Volkswagen Maintenance for the Compleat Idiot") is on record as saying cars would be safest if "... drivers were strapped to the front like an Aztec sacrifice" (paraphrased). Exploits to take over cars through the infotainment systems only reinforce my prejudice.
tadfisher 10y ago
I'm reminded of the $50 upgrade to fully unlock your Pentium G6951 CPU: https://www.engadget.com/2010/09/18/intel-wants-to-charge-50-to-unlock-stuff-your-cpu-can-already-d/ https://www.engadget.com/2010/09/18/intel-wants-to-charge-50... This is the sort of thing economies of scale bring. It's evidenced by CPU and GPU binning, whereby it's cheaper for the manufacturer to make one part and segment the market with simple switches to disable functionality (in some cases, disabling parts of the chip with flaws which render it otherwise unsellable). Car makers have been doing this for ages with simpler features, such as including air conditioning or intermittent wipers but requiring the user to pay exorbitant amounts for the switch on the dash to activate them.
- tajen 10y ago
  ...and slower CPUs were the same pieces which didn't pass the quality test for heat dispersion, thus sold at lower price, for lower operating frequencies.
  - doughj3 10y ago
    Like the AMD Sempron 140/145 which was sold a single core CPU but could have its second core "unlocked" in the BIOS: http://www.overclock.net/t/1461066/how-to-unlock-the-2nd-core-in-sempron-145-am3 http://www.overclock.net/t/1461066/how-to-unlock-the-2nd-cor...
- makomk 10y ago
  This is the sort of thing that economies of scale bring when paired with a lack of effective competition. If there's effective competition, then some company can and will cut into all the other companies' sales by selling a fully-unlocked version of their hardware at close to the price of the locked version.
  - hueving 10y ago
    >sales by selling a fully-unlocked version of their hardware at close to the price of the locked version. not quite. it's possible you can't afford to make the fully-unlocked version at scale unless you can charge extra for it.
lechevalierd3on 10y ago
It remind a lot of AMD disabling some of it CPU cores on some models.
- efoto 10y ago
  As well as Intel 486DX/SX saga. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_80486SX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_80486SX
  - JadeNB 10y ago
    Ha, I was wondering if I was the only one here old enough to remember it! I couldn't imagine a tech writer not leaping for this analogy.
justinsingh 10y ago
I felt like the second half of the post took on a totally different theme from the first half. Maybe I'm missing the point of the article. But as for the second half.. I feel that cars are going to adapt to us, rather than us adapting to cars. It's already happening, as the Volvo steering wheel example describes.
Animats 10y ago
The user interface for automatic driving is still in flux. The user interface for semi-automatic driving needs to be standardized. There was that episode a few weeks ago where someone in a Tesla rear-ended another car because they didn't know that in firmware revision 6.22 and later, a tap on the brakes disables automatic braking. This needs to be standardized before such cars start appearing in airport rental lots.
- mschuster91 10y ago
  You should not rely on emergency auto-brake systems anyway! These are systems designed to prevent accidents in case the driver misses something, but NOT for daily use!
  - icebraining 10y ago
    Admonitions don't work; if it works most of the time, people will rely on it for daily use. Either one makes that annoying somehow or it has to be reliable.
  - radarsat1 10y ago
    > You should not rely on emergency auto-brake systems anyway! > > These are systems designed to prevent accidents in case the driver misses something, but NOT for daily use! But you know people _will_. That's what happens with affordances. Design. It changes how people interact with things, and not always in the intended way. It's _very_ important to consider when you're talking about the operation of machines that can kill. Indeed, the presence of emergency brakes could very well reduce the number of accidents, while at the same time making people rather lazy and eventually _causing_ some. Like taking bigger risks on your bicycle when you're wearing a helmet.
    - Nadya 10y ago
      >Indeed, the presence of emergency brakes could very well reduce the number of accidents, while at the same time making people rather lazy and eventually _causing_ some. Is there a psychological term for this thought process? The thought process: People killing people is "okay" but people killing (overall) fewer people because they are relying on "emergency auto-brake systems" is "not okay". For me, it is a no brainer to reduce human casualties as much as possible. But it seems others disagree with that if some automated system is responsible for deaths instead of a human. Is it because blame is harder to place?
outworlder 10y ago
> The cheaper car ($66K base price) has a software block on its battery which limits its range to 208 miles on a full charge Is that really true? Are the batteries otherwise identical and you can get stranded with plenty of reserve power?
- beachstartup 10y ago
  it probably limits how much it charges, not the output of the battery.
  - outworlder 10y ago
    Which would have the effect of increasing the longevity of the "smaller" battery. If what the article says is true, then this could be the motivation.
    - chipperyman573 10y ago
      But if you pay 9 grand to bypass this limit, it becomes the regular car.
jakeogh 10y ago
I want a analog car with full mechanical linkage.
- throwanem 10y ago
  Disable the power steering pump on any car from the late nineties and you'll have one.
- gerbilly 10y ago
  >full mechanical linkage. Not even hydraulics?
  - boredinballard 10y ago
    Works for drum brakes.
  - kylecordes 10y ago
    I drove a car with a manual transmission and no power steering in the early 1990s, a Honda Civic of some kind. Primitive, but it was also a bit of a delight. A very physical and mechanical thing. The lack of power automation was rarely a problem. However, it asked more of the driver them I amused to nowadays, and would be extremely unpopular if they even still made such a thing.
    - RUG3Y 10y ago
      I'm in love with my Honda, it's a 2000 though. I intend to keep it as long as possible, newer cars just don't "feel" right to me.
    - walrus01 10y ago
      You have just described a car like a Suzuki Mehran (manufactured today in Karachi, Pakistan) and similar small cars manufactured in India. They're immensely popular in the developing world because such cars are frequently the first proper enclosed, 4-seat vehicle a newly middle class family can afford.
  - 10y ago
ARothfusz 10y ago
This happened long ago with the turn signal solenoid. That clicky sound when you flip your trafficator? That used to be a real physical switch opening and closing with electromagnets. Now most people have forgotten what it really sounded like and they're satisfied with a gentle, fake click-click recording.
Reason077 10y ago
If you look at this as a $6000 or so discount on a new Tesla, it actually seems like a pretty good deal. A 75kWh battery pack that is limited to 60kWh is better than having a real 60kWh pack. The extra over-capacity means that it won't be charging to it's true 100% capacity, and not discharging to 0%. That puts less wear on the cells, and means faster charging. (The sweet spot for charging is in the middle of the battery's capacity - charging speed is slower if the battery is near 0% or near 100%.)
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- dangrossman 10y ago
  This means a 2016 S60 will still have 208 miles of EPA rated range when it's off-lease or up for resale in 2019, whereas a 2013 S60 most likely has a smaller range than when it was new. Tesla cars will depreciate more slowly, with resale prices closer to original MSRP. That's all good news for their leasing program, their resale value guarantee program, and their certified pre-owned program. There are a lot of upsides to reducing battery wear. Battery wear is a big reason my 2012 Nissan Leaf is worth less than 1/3rd of its original MSRP.
  - ams6110 10y ago
    Most 2012 cars are not worth more than a third of the original MSRP, especially if you're looking at typical trade-in value. If I were in the market for a car right now I'd be looking for about a 2008 model year. All the significant depreciation has already been realized and you can find some real values in good condition with a lot of life left if you shop around a bit.
- akira2501 10y ago
  > A 75kWh battery pack that is limited to 60kWh is better than having a real 60kWh pack. Why? Wouldn't the weight reduction be useful? > If you look at this as a $6000 or so discount on a new Tesla, it actually seems like a pretty good deal. Yes.. but the whole battery is still being used, and is still in a position to require service. It could be the case that I have a 60kW tesla, but still need to pay the full 75kW repair price, because of the way they structured this.
Spooky23 10y ago
I think there is going to be a huge market for used 2005-2010 vehicles without the big brother tracking and obnoxious touch screens everywhere. Take a few hundred thousand, buy a collection of low mileage pickup trucks and Honda Accords and store them for 10 years. I bet you'd 10x your investment.
sandworm101 10y ago
Am I the only poor man here? Am I the only one who expects their car to last fifteen, twenty years, even longer with good maintenance? I see people talking of cars depreciating into worthlessness faster than I go through laptops. A toyota or BMW bought today will probably still be on the road come 2035. That's what makes them good cars. Nothing changes overnight in this field. No matter which fancy autodrive scheme you think is or isn't the second coming, these are massive blocks of moving parts. Throwing them away every five or ten years is ridiculous. Tesla may be all cool and willing to update software, but it's very easy to be that when your fleet is all shiny. Come back when someone finds a security flaw in the 25 year-old model that is now in the hands a highschool kid as his first car. Come back when the 4g antenna in the dashboard can no longer communicate over the now-standard 67gxrr mobile network. That's why there are warehouses stacked full of parts all over the country. That's the car biz.
- _lm_ 10y ago
  Man, my newest car is 25 years old and I do all the maintenance on all of them (25 years, 30 years, and 32 years old) myself, aside from safety inspections and alignments. I recently had one fail safety for two small things and the shop quoted me $1k to fix it--$250 parts, $750 labor. That $250 is going to be more like $50 for me since I know what parts need replacing and I know how to make a bushing for my steering rack rather than replacing the whole rack. If I didn't have that know-how (or a friend or family member who could help me out), I'd be SOL. And this is hardly a one-off thing, and hardly specific to me. Plenty of people are only able to afford cars if they can fix them themselves. Moreover, I hope to keep these cars running 10 or 20 years further down the road. The only reason I can hope to do this is because of aftermarket manufacturers and no technical restrictions on what I can replace, upgrade, or re-make on my cars. A friend of mine has had weird problems on his relatively modern car because of what's probably a cold solder in the fuse box on his car. That fuse box costs $700 to replace PLUS whatever the dealer is going to charge you to reprogram the computer in it. Why does a fuse box need a computer in it? Hell if I know. How do you fix this once the dealer no longer keeps around the cables and software to reprogram that computer? Either replace every single computer in the car with computers from a car with a working fuse box, or reverse-engineer the proprietary protocol the fuse box talks and re-engineer a replacement. Oh, except that latter choice is legally questionable, thanks to the DMCA. I expect a lot more cars from this era to end up as fancy bricks. That's a damn shame; there's no reason to discard a nearly-functional pile of parts just because some auto manufacturer is too stingy to help you fix, or not hinder you from fixing, the thing they built and sold you. I recall a study that showed that keeping an old car functioning was just as efficient pollution-wise than building a whole new car to replace it with. I guess the upside here is that there's going to be a decent amount of demand for folks like me who have both mechanical and electrical chops in the car repair scene in a few years.
syngrog66 10y ago
There is a cost diff for Tesla, between these two scenarios. But it is subtle. In the cheaper variant of the two he cited, that battery is going to have (possibly) more charge buffer remaining when it's ostensibly "empty". AFAICT. Whereas that more expensive variant will not. Again, assuming otherwise identical. So in theory that more expensive variant is more likely to have more customers who reach empty, get stuck, need towing, complain, etc. Again this is just AFAICT based on info at hand. In this theory, Tesla is saying, "Fine if you truly want to squeeze out more miles, we'll let you, but to compensate us for risk of more complaints, we'd like a little more money." again, just a theory. may be more complex than this.
kaonashi 10y ago
This kind of engineered inefficiency for market segmentation purposes irritates me to no end.
drdeadringer 10y ago
> "Cars are big computers, and have been for a while" IIRC, it's been said by Cory Doctorow that a pacemaker is a computer I put into my body, and a car is a computer I put my body into.

95 points by jordigh 10y ago

I don't think it's "cars" are getting weird, it's just this one weird Tesla and their business model... The article says: "Cars are big computers, and have been for a while" Doesn't mean we need to treat them like software development platforms. Most of the challenges are still at OSI layer 1 and most of the problems to deal with are mechanical: Tire still wear out, disc brakes still function much as they did 10 or 15 years ago (and wear out), wheel bearings, hydraulic systems for power steering, etc. Given that cars have much longer lifespans than typical consumer electronics, the last thing I want is a car with a built in 10" touchscreen running some ancient version of Android. I'd rather have some sort of standardized modular system where I can put my own tablet-sized computer in an appropriate place and have it get power, audio sync with the car's speakers. Look at the crap infotainment systems built into 2015 and 2016 model Toyotas, Hondas and Nissans and compare it with a good $400 Android 6.x tablet. Do you really want that same un-updated OS and software for ten years? The idea of the "double DIN" size car stereo mounting location was a good one, but we need something bigger than this, and with standardized cable connectors: http://www.autodvdgps.com/ebay/ZC620/ebay-3.jpg http://www.autodvdgps.com/ebay/ZC620/ebay-3.jpg Carmakers, please find a way to separate the 'infotainment' part of the car's computer from the embedded computer that's actually required for the car to run (engine timing/valves, fuel injectors, mixture, emissions monitoring, intake oxygen sensor, etc).

jacquesm 10y ago
Yes, but API's for cars are not going to be very popular with the manufacturers, who would like you to pay big $ for their crappy un-upgradeable bs. This is one reason why you'll upgrade your whole car, after all.
- aioprisan 10y ago
  I would image they'll go through the same evolution that was brought on by the competition from Android devices: cheap, full-features, and massively popular.
- aioprisan 10y ago
  I would image they'll go through the same evolution that was brought on by the competition from Android devices: cheap, full-features, and massively popular.
Reason077 10y ago
the last thing I want is a car with a built in 10" touchscreen running some ancient version of Android... Do you really want that same un-updated OS and software for ten years? One of the nice things about Tesla is their regular, free software updates. Even the earliest Tesla Model S models can be updated to the latest software. You get all the features that the 2016 Teslas have, except of course where the required hardware is not present (like Autopilot).
- dragontamer 10y ago
  Or in cases as directly described in the post: like when Tesla uses software-limits to prevent the car from using the whole battery... and charges you $9000 for the rights to use the whole battery as it was designed.
- walrus01 10y ago
  In things like smart TVs, smart fridges with LCDs on them, and infotainment systems in cars, this is sadly the exception and not the norm. Hardware-oriented manufacturers push a product out the door and things frequently get little or no updated after that. I'm willing to bet money that in ten years from now, a lot of 2016/2017 model year Toyotas that ship today with some sort of infotainment touchscreen system in them will be still running the exact same software. In fifteen years from now such cars will look as quaint as the cars from the 1980s with full LED dashes: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Vfd_car.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Vfd_car....
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    Auto manufacturers are restricted from OTA updates due to agreements with their dealer networks. Tesla has no such restriction.
    - kirykl 10y ago
      Not true http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-36478641 http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-36478641
ultimoo 10y ago
Agreed. I recently got a Pioneer 4100 NEX aftermarket CarPlay device fitted in my 2010 Camry just for this. Unfortunately, CarPlay itself has many usability issues that have not allowed me to use the system the way I had imagined.
- kylec 10y ago
  This is a bit of a tangent, but could you expand on that? I'm interested in getting CarPlay in my next car, but I'd like to know what some of the limitations and downsides are.
- DKnoll 10y ago
  Are you on Android? If you are I assume you're referring to being locked into the Pioneer interface and compatible apps. There is actually a way to use the native Android interface if you have a rooted device: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2451980 http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2451980 I do not use this personally, but I was looking into the Pioneer 4100 NEX myself and plan to buy one after finding this workaround.
- a2tech 10y ago
  I'd love to hear more about this-I have a 2009 Camry hybrid that has a janky screen that I've been thinking about replacing with a more modern audio device.
koenigdavidmj 10y ago
> disc brakes still function much as they did 10 or 15 years ago (and wear out) Actually, regenerative breaking means they last quite a bit longer.
- barrkel 10y ago
  Brake pads are cheap, discs aren't very cheap but are still reasonable. A regenerative braking system? I'll bet that's a lot more expensive.
  - pedrocr 10y ago
    Shouldn't be actually. The regenerative braking system on an electric car is just the regular drive train. The energy just flows in reverse. The wheels drive the transmission that drives the motor that charges the battery.
  - Reason077 10y ago
    In an electric vehicle, regenerative braking is free. It's just the motor turning kinetic energy into electric energy, rather than the other way around. There aren't really any extra parts or systems involved.
ansible 10y ago
> I'd rather have some sort of standardized modular system where I can put my own tablet-sized computer in an appropriate place and have it get power, audio sync with the car's speakers. Oh my gosh yes! The car should be the peripheral, not the main compute device. Is it a big deal to plug in a 10-year old USB mouse into your computer? No, because that is a well-defined interface. Ditto for some other peripherals. This is what I'd like my car to be. I don't think we'll see that anytime soon though. Unless everyone gets on-board with a Bluetooth standard that exposes sufficient functions to the phone/tablet to be useful.
- kylecordes 10y ago
  Probably everyone here would like something like this. But the decisions aren't going to be made by the sort of people who read this, they're going to be made by auto marketing executives. Then they're going to operate in an environment regulated according to lobbying by automakers. We're going to get auto electronics with software that becomes obsolete about as fast as a typical Android smart phone. I realistically think that when the major legacy automakers ship something vaguely similar to a Tesla dashboard, the best a buyer can hope for is that it remains vaguely updated for a year or two, and then only critical vehicle safety changes might be made forever thereafter. But you can also look at this and the point of view of carmakers. What an amazing boon to sales. This is a way to finally solve the ultimate problem of selling cars today. A car you make today has to compete with the extremely good car you made five years ago that still works great, still looks great, and is much much cheaper.
  - seanp2k2 10y ago
    This makes tons of sense, especially in these early days of self-driving vehicles. There are of course enthusiasts who will want nothing to do with self-driving until the very end when their manual gearboxes are ripped from their cold, dead hands, who would honestly prefer precisely zero touch screens in their current and future vehicles (I consider myself part of this group). We're a small minority though, and as evidenced by how many cars are still available in the US with even the option to row your own, I don't think it's going to stop any manufacturer from eliminating the possibility of manual control entirely within the next few decades.
dv_dt 10y ago
I don't even want a modular computer slot - I just want a built-in 'remote' display panel & speakers. Just setup a peripherial that can be wirelessly or usb/lightning cable linked that also transmits the touch info back to my phone and plays sound. Maybe a switch to flip the display to access direct car controls (but really just give me hard-buttons/dials etc for climate control and keep the consumer electronic part simple and separate). Extra points if there's a standard for sending car control api calls back and forth to the phone, but 90% of utility could just be handled with a remote touch display.
- ygjb-dupe 10y ago
  Do you think those are physical switches in cars with tactile components? All of that UX stuff is still backed by a controller. If they are going to proved a remote display, i would prefer those pieces to be integrated so that if I move my mobile device to a different vehicle, then that vehicle imports my settings. While we are wishing for horses, we might as well make them unicorns :D
  - Natanael_L 10y ago
    That's basically Android Auto.
- espes 10y ago
  You are exactly describing Apple CarPlay and Android Auto
- Natanael_L 10y ago
  Why not both? Eventually whatever connection you're using will be dated and considered inefficient crap. Would you want to have to deal with Bluetooth 1.0 today? Use a standard modular platform so you can hook up whatever SoC you like. Whenever the old one gets dated, upgrade it and get all the latest fancy radios.
  - dv_dt 10y ago
    A modular platform is a much fatter interface than a display + touch peripheral. To me larger, more complex interface is more likely to go out of date and focused minimal interfaces last longer. People are still using VGA today, and will be using HDMI/DVI for a long long time. Whatever I carry as a phone is going to be updated much more frequently than my car or even a radio/consumer electronics module in my car.
WalterBright 10y ago
I'd like my car computer software to be re-copied from ROM every time the car is started. The ROMs will only be updateable by someone who has physical access to the car so they can push the physical "write enable" switch. I.e. not a software "write enable" switch.
- kevin_thibedeau 10y ago
  Just disconnect or shield the wifi or cell antenna used for remote access. For bonus points plumb in a repeater/firewall to filter any traffic you want.
  - Silhouette 10y ago
    This is a cute hacker-mindset solution until it voids your warranty and/or you don't get an update you actually did want to keep your car safe. The solution to this issue isn't treating the car manufacturer as a hostile party and trying weird tricks to circumvent their future actions. The solution is ensuring that the car manufacturer isn't hostile in the first place. Ideally I'd like to do that with market forces, but that requires the average consumer to understand a lot more about the technology and its implications than is realistic so they can protect themselves. A more realistic alternative is probably statutory regulation and penalties for non-compliance that can become an existential threat to the manufacturer's business.
    - WalterBright 10y ago
      I'm more concerned with stopping hacker attacks and malware infestations. Hence the physical write-enable switch.
      - Silhouette 10y ago
        I completely agree. I'm firmly in the "do not want" camp with a lot of this stuff. I find very few of the modern electronic distractions to be useful or desirable anyway, and I find approximately none of them useful or desirable enough to justify risking safety, security or privacy.
OscarCunningham 10y ago
Sadly these are the exact reasons why it won't be modular. They can force you to buy a new car just by stopping support for its operating system.
- chrismcb 10y ago
  The car won't stop working just because they do updating the software. At least in America they have to provide parts for at least 10 years. And eventually they won't be able to continue to yell copyright to prevent people from updating the software
  - superuser2 10y ago
    If the software is internet-facing (hint: it is) and contains unpatched vulnerabilities, it could easily be made to stop working by a drive-by (hah) script kiddie attack.
  - xg15 10y ago
    This is actually an interesting question when combined with OTA updates. Could (auto maker of your choice) theoretically supply all the parts you want but deny you from using them via software blocks? Or would that be illegal?
  - ArkyBeagle 10y ago
    There are people with John Deere tractors who claim they can no longer use said tractors because the tractor's owner won't pay for an authorized tech to come out and plug into the tractor. Because farmers have to be frugal. So maybe they can yell copyright. On the other hand, things with engines can hurt people so you cannot allow unconstrained access to that port. Safety, IP and "who owns what" will make things more interesting as things emerge.
- 50CNT 10y ago
  Cars aren't iPhones though. Let's assume that the manufacturer supports the OS for 2 years and let's take the Nissan Versa 2016, which has the lowest cost to own of any car. Sticker Price I found was $12,825 ,so let's go with that. Cost to Own for 5 years I found is $28,855. I assume this includes depreciation and that the car fully depreciates in 5 years. If the car lasts for 2 years, the monthly cost comes down to $796/month. If the car lasts for 5, the monthly cost is $476/month, which is a little more than half. Now this is the most budget new car I could find. Straight up doubles in cost. Or you get the situation where people just decide to drive with the legacy version anyways, which sounds a lot like a literal ton of Windows XP at 50mph. And all because you couldn't come up with a universal plug for car entertainment systems.
moron4hire 10y ago
Theoretically, that standardized system is called CANBUS, but companies like Toyota think it should be encrypted and out of your reach.
- Silhouette 10y ago
  Of all the innovations in modern auto design, I'm not sure that's the one I'd go for. IIRC, a CAN bus design is essentially a jazz model for connecting different subsystems with no built-in security standards. For some reason, I'm not sure externally connected hardware, OTA-updated software, a vehicle's essential mechanical control systems, and implicitly trusted access from everywhere to everything via a centralised bus is a good combination. Some of the relevant technology is patent-encumbered as well, which is rarely an ideal basis for standardisation and interoperability IMHO.
- ams6110 10y ago
  I think that's what my old Chrysler had. The one where when it failed, absolutely every electrical accessory went dead at the same time. HVAC, radio, wipers, turn signals, tailights. The only thing that still worked was the engine management computer (it still ran fine) and the headlights which seemed to be wired directly. I think the brake lights also worked but I'm not sure.
douche 10y ago
I would really like a 100% mechanical automobile, with no computers involved, designed such that when something breaks and you're fifty miles away from anything, you can actually crawl underneath and fix it. Analog radio, crank windows, keyhole locks on every door, real guages. I'll concede the electric starter and the windshield wipers, since I'm not that nostalgic for the days of the Model T. Completely off-topic, but if I saw a new truck with the old-style floor-mounted stomp pedal for the dimmer switch, it'd almost be a shut-up-and-take-my-money situation. I cannot comprehend why automakers keep piling more stuff into the steering wheel. Some of the little sedans have handles and buttons coming off them every which way.
- tadfisher 10y ago
  I've found computer-controlled electronic fuel injection much more reliable than carburetors. And OBDII is very handy for diagnosing mechanical problems, even with the manufacturer idiosyncrasies.
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    I sense some rose colored glasses. Cars are so much more reliable than they were even 25 years ago. Reliable and longer lasting. My first car broke down if you looked at it wrong. My current car does not have that problem even though it is just as old/has just as many miles on it than my first car did at the time. Breaking down on the side of the road used to be a common part of my life, now it hasn't happened to me in the last 8 years.
  - vlehto 10y ago
    The reason for that increased reliability is probably because of pump pressure, not controls. Direct injection has several hundred bar working pressure and a separate filter can be used because of such pressure. Traditional float controlled carburetor probably doesn't work because there is some foreign object stuck in the duct. You cant use heavy filtering because the pressures are almost atmospheric.
- sargun 10y ago
  Why would you want that? How often does your car actually break? What computer-controlled components break in it?
Bromskloss 10y ago
I just want a car that still runs even if all its electronics (not really counting ignition here) are fried.
- 2muchcoffeeman 10y ago
  I had a 2003 Camry. I recently bought a 2nd hand 2014 Camry. I have not done any research, but I swear that the car is magically doing things for me. Eg. When the parking break was on and you forgot and tried to drive, the 2003 had some resistance. On the 2014, it seems that it disengages the brake for you if you are not in Park. Which can be annoying if you have to stop on an incline with traffic. It also seems to regulate your speed in very wet conditions. On a straight road, in moderate rain, it definitely feels like I need to push the accelerator down more to get up to speed. I admit the 2014 model is nicer to drive, but I don't know what will happen if the electronics get fried.
  - slededit 10y ago
    The speed regulator part is probably the traction control. Mandatory on all 2013 and up models.
yareally 10y ago
> "Carmakers, please find a way to separate the 'infotainment' part of the car's computer from the embedded computer that's actually required for the car to run" They have, sorta (but it's still rather limited in functionality): https://www.android.com/auto/ https://www.android.com/auto/ Android Auto and I believe Apple Car Play both run totally from your phone/tablet, with the car just being a view screen. Thus, you get updates when your phone updates.
Tiksi 10y ago
>I'd rather have some sort of standardized modular system where I can put my own tablet-sized computer in an appropriate place and have it get power, audio sync with the car's speakers I did pretty much this in my car, and it was surprisingly easy. ~7 inch tablets are just about the same size as Double DIN radios, so a little but of modification to the mounting bracket, some wiring, and a used Nexus 7 I picked up on ebay got me this: http://paste.click/RILfPr http://paste.click/RILfPr It's hooked into the car's speakers via a USB dac and a small amp, and pulls sensor data from the OBDII port with a cheap bluetooth scantool, but otherwise is completely independent of the car's systems. Turns on and off instantly with the car's power thanks to Timur's Kernel (super low power standby really, but the battery drains isn't much different than having it completely off). I also attached a wireless remote via OTG so I don't have to mess with the touchscreen for simple things like volume and media controls while driving. So it's definitely a viable option. I'm surprised no one has come out with a standardized D-DIN to <popular tablet> bracket yet.
seanp2k2 10y ago
Sadly, this is unlikely to happen since car makers can up sell cars based on the software they ship with. Aside from bugs, there's little motivation to ever update that or release newer versions compatible with older models. We even see the same forces in action with the aforementioned android tablets. Consider how long the typical manufacturer releases android upgrades for a given model. It's typically a year or less.
ArkyBeagle 10y ago
How about we don't have "infotainment" in cars? The cumudgeonly John Muir ( who wrote "Volkswagen Maintenance for the Compleat Idiot") is on record as saying cars would be safest if "... drivers were strapped to the front like an Aztec sacrifice" (paraphrased). Exploits to take over cars through the infotainment systems only reinforce my prejudice.

tadfisher 10y ago

I'm reminded of the $50 upgrade to fully unlock your Pentium G6951 CPU: https://www.engadget.com/2010/09/18/intel-wants-to-charge-50-to-unlock-stuff-your-cpu-can-already-d/ https://www.engadget.com/2010/09/18/intel-wants-to-charge-50... This is the sort of thing economies of scale bring. It's evidenced by CPU and GPU binning, whereby it's cheaper for the manufacturer to make one part and segment the market with simple switches to disable functionality (in some cases, disabling parts of the chip with flaws which render it otherwise unsellable). Car makers have been doing this for ages with simpler features, such as including air conditioning or intermittent wipers but requiring the user to pay exorbitant amounts for the switch on the dash to activate them.

tajen 10y ago
...and slower CPUs were the same pieces which didn't pass the quality test for heat dispersion, thus sold at lower price, for lower operating frequencies.
- doughj3 10y ago
  Like the AMD Sempron 140/145 which was sold a single core CPU but could have its second core "unlocked" in the BIOS: http://www.overclock.net/t/1461066/how-to-unlock-the-2nd-core-in-sempron-145-am3 http://www.overclock.net/t/1461066/how-to-unlock-the-2nd-cor...
makomk 10y ago
This is the sort of thing that economies of scale bring when paired with a lack of effective competition. If there's effective competition, then some company can and will cut into all the other companies' sales by selling a fully-unlocked version of their hardware at close to the price of the locked version.
- hueving 10y ago
  >sales by selling a fully-unlocked version of their hardware at close to the price of the locked version. not quite. it's possible you can't afford to make the fully-unlocked version at scale unless you can charge extra for it.

lechevalierd3on 10y ago

It remind a lot of AMD disabling some of it CPU cores on some models.

efoto 10y ago
As well as Intel 486DX/SX saga. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_80486SX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_80486SX
- JadeNB 10y ago
  Ha, I was wondering if I was the only one here old enough to remember it! I couldn't imagine a tech writer not leaping for this analogy.

justinsingh 10y ago

I felt like the second half of the post took on a totally different theme from the first half. Maybe I'm missing the point of the article. But as for the second half.. I feel that cars are going to adapt to us, rather than us adapting to cars. It's already happening, as the Volvo steering wheel example describes.

Animats 10y ago

The user interface for automatic driving is still in flux. The user interface for semi-automatic driving needs to be standardized. There was that episode a few weeks ago where someone in a Tesla rear-ended another car because they didn't know that in firmware revision 6.22 and later, a tap on the brakes disables automatic braking. This needs to be standardized before such cars start appearing in airport rental lots.

mschuster91 10y ago
You should not rely on emergency auto-brake systems anyway! These are systems designed to prevent accidents in case the driver misses something, but NOT for daily use!
- icebraining 10y ago
  Admonitions don't work; if it works most of the time, people will rely on it for daily use. Either one makes that annoying somehow or it has to be reliable.
- radarsat1 10y ago
  > You should not rely on emergency auto-brake systems anyway! > > These are systems designed to prevent accidents in case the driver misses something, but NOT for daily use! But you know people _will_. That's what happens with affordances. Design. It changes how people interact with things, and not always in the intended way. It's _very_ important to consider when you're talking about the operation of machines that can kill. Indeed, the presence of emergency brakes could very well reduce the number of accidents, while at the same time making people rather lazy and eventually _causing_ some. Like taking bigger risks on your bicycle when you're wearing a helmet.
  - Nadya 10y ago
    >Indeed, the presence of emergency brakes could very well reduce the number of accidents, while at the same time making people rather lazy and eventually _causing_ some. Is there a psychological term for this thought process? The thought process: People killing people is "okay" but people killing (overall) fewer people because they are relying on "emergency auto-brake systems" is "not okay". For me, it is a no brainer to reduce human casualties as much as possible. But it seems others disagree with that if some automated system is responsible for deaths instead of a human. Is it because blame is harder to place?

outworlder 10y ago

> The cheaper car ($66K base price) has a software block on its battery which limits its range to 208 miles on a full charge Is that really true? Are the batteries otherwise identical and you can get stranded with plenty of reserve power?

beachstartup 10y ago
it probably limits how much it charges, not the output of the battery.
- outworlder 10y ago
  Which would have the effect of increasing the longevity of the "smaller" battery. If what the article says is true, then this could be the motivation.
  - chipperyman573 10y ago
    But if you pay 9 grand to bypass this limit, it becomes the regular car.

jakeogh 10y ago

I want a analog car with full mechanical linkage.

throwanem 10y ago
Disable the power steering pump on any car from the late nineties and you'll have one.
gerbilly 10y ago
>full mechanical linkage. Not even hydraulics?
- boredinballard 10y ago
  Works for drum brakes.
- kylecordes 10y ago
  I drove a car with a manual transmission and no power steering in the early 1990s, a Honda Civic of some kind. Primitive, but it was also a bit of a delight. A very physical and mechanical thing. The lack of power automation was rarely a problem. However, it asked more of the driver them I amused to nowadays, and would be extremely unpopular if they even still made such a thing.
  - RUG3Y 10y ago
    I'm in love with my Honda, it's a 2000 though. I intend to keep it as long as possible, newer cars just don't "feel" right to me.
  - walrus01 10y ago
    You have just described a car like a Suzuki Mehran (manufactured today in Karachi, Pakistan) and similar small cars manufactured in India. They're immensely popular in the developing world because such cars are frequently the first proper enclosed, 4-seat vehicle a newly middle class family can afford.
- 10y ago

ARothfusz 10y ago

This happened long ago with the turn signal solenoid. That clicky sound when you flip your trafficator? That used to be a real physical switch opening and closing with electromagnets. Now most people have forgotten what it really sounded like and they're satisfied with a gentle, fake click-click recording.

Reason077 10y ago

If you look at this as a $6000 or so discount on a new Tesla, it actually seems like a pretty good deal. A 75kWh battery pack that is limited to 60kWh is better than having a real 60kWh pack. The extra over-capacity means that it won't be charging to it's true 100% capacity, and not discharging to 0%. That puts less wear on the cells, and means faster charging. (The sweet spot for charging is in the middle of the battery's capacity - charging speed is slower if the battery is near 0% or near 100%.)

deleted 10y ago
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dangrossman 10y ago
This means a 2016 S60 will still have 208 miles of EPA rated range when it's off-lease or up for resale in 2019, whereas a 2013 S60 most likely has a smaller range than when it was new. Tesla cars will depreciate more slowly, with resale prices closer to original MSRP. That's all good news for their leasing program, their resale value guarantee program, and their certified pre-owned program. There are a lot of upsides to reducing battery wear. Battery wear is a big reason my 2012 Nissan Leaf is worth less than 1/3rd of its original MSRP.
- ams6110 10y ago
  Most 2012 cars are not worth more than a third of the original MSRP, especially if you're looking at typical trade-in value. If I were in the market for a car right now I'd be looking for about a 2008 model year. All the significant depreciation has already been realized and you can find some real values in good condition with a lot of life left if you shop around a bit.
akira2501 10y ago
> A 75kWh battery pack that is limited to 60kWh is better than having a real 60kWh pack. Why? Wouldn't the weight reduction be useful? > If you look at this as a $6000 or so discount on a new Tesla, it actually seems like a pretty good deal. Yes.. but the whole battery is still being used, and is still in a position to require service. It could be the case that I have a 60kW tesla, but still need to pay the full 75kW repair price, because of the way they structured this.

Spooky23 10y ago

I think there is going to be a huge market for used 2005-2010 vehicles without the big brother tracking and obnoxious touch screens everywhere. Take a few hundred thousand, buy a collection of low mileage pickup trucks and Honda Accords and store them for 10 years. I bet you'd 10x your investment.

sandworm101 10y ago

Am I the only poor man here? Am I the only one who expects their car to last fifteen, twenty years, even longer with good maintenance? I see people talking of cars depreciating into worthlessness faster than I go through laptops. A toyota or BMW bought today will probably still be on the road come 2035. That's what makes them good cars. Nothing changes overnight in this field. No matter which fancy autodrive scheme you think is or isn't the second coming, these are massive blocks of moving parts. Throwing them away every five or ten years is ridiculous. Tesla may be all cool and willing to update software, but it's very easy to be that when your fleet is all shiny. Come back when someone finds a security flaw in the 25 year-old model that is now in the hands a highschool kid as his first car. Come back when the 4g antenna in the dashboard can no longer communicate over the now-standard 67gxrr mobile network. That's why there are warehouses stacked full of parts all over the country. That's the car biz.

_lm_ 10y ago
Man, my newest car is 25 years old and I do all the maintenance on all of them (25 years, 30 years, and 32 years old) myself, aside from safety inspections and alignments. I recently had one fail safety for two small things and the shop quoted me $1k to fix it--$250 parts, $750 labor. That $250 is going to be more like $50 for me since I know what parts need replacing and I know how to make a bushing for my steering rack rather than replacing the whole rack. If I didn't have that know-how (or a friend or family member who could help me out), I'd be SOL. And this is hardly a one-off thing, and hardly specific to me. Plenty of people are only able to afford cars if they can fix them themselves. Moreover, I hope to keep these cars running 10 or 20 years further down the road. The only reason I can hope to do this is because of aftermarket manufacturers and no technical restrictions on what I can replace, upgrade, or re-make on my cars. A friend of mine has had weird problems on his relatively modern car because of what's probably a cold solder in the fuse box on his car. That fuse box costs $700 to replace PLUS whatever the dealer is going to charge you to reprogram the computer in it. Why does a fuse box need a computer in it? Hell if I know. How do you fix this once the dealer no longer keeps around the cables and software to reprogram that computer? Either replace every single computer in the car with computers from a car with a working fuse box, or reverse-engineer the proprietary protocol the fuse box talks and re-engineer a replacement. Oh, except that latter choice is legally questionable, thanks to the DMCA. I expect a lot more cars from this era to end up as fancy bricks. That's a damn shame; there's no reason to discard a nearly-functional pile of parts just because some auto manufacturer is too stingy to help you fix, or not hinder you from fixing, the thing they built and sold you. I recall a study that showed that keeping an old car functioning was just as efficient pollution-wise than building a whole new car to replace it with. I guess the upside here is that there's going to be a decent amount of demand for folks like me who have both mechanical and electrical chops in the car repair scene in a few years.

syngrog66 10y ago

There is a cost diff for Tesla, between these two scenarios. But it is subtle. In the cheaper variant of the two he cited, that battery is going to have (possibly) more charge buffer remaining when it's ostensibly "empty". AFAICT. Whereas that more expensive variant will not. Again, assuming otherwise identical. So in theory that more expensive variant is more likely to have more customers who reach empty, get stuck, need towing, complain, etc. Again this is just AFAICT based on info at hand. In this theory, Tesla is saying, "Fine if you truly want to squeeze out more miles, we'll let you, but to compensate us for risk of more complaints, we'd like a little more money." again, just a theory. may be more complex than this.

kaonashi 10y ago

This kind of engineered inefficiency for market segmentation purposes irritates me to no end.

drdeadringer 10y ago

> "Cars are big computers, and have been for a while" IIRC, it's been said by Cory Doctorow that a pacemaker is a computer I put into my body, and a car is a computer I put my body into.