3 ms·

Uhh, I think you forgot quite a few things on the other direction: false flag operation and takeover of Crimea, creating and sustaining the civil war in East Uk

Uhh, I think you forgot quite a few things on the other direction: false flag operation and takeover of Crimea, creating and sustaining the civil war in East Ukraine, holding several provinces of other countries hostage, hacking into Baltic online elections, ongoing infowar with RT spreading lies and inciting protests (eg the false story of a Russian-German girl being raped by migrants in Germany, even after revealed to be wrong still perpetuated by Russian ministers through TV interviews), funding for extreme right and extreme left wing opposition parties across the EU, regular provocations with submarines and fighter jets, covert operatives planted over decades in the US, Spain and probably more countries, professional astroturfing operations to target EU news sites, ... Not saying the US isn't absolutely abusing its power, but as a European we take US insanity any time over Putin. How this all escalated to this point is a difficult question to ask and both sides likely bear part of the burden, but for the past~10 years it seems clear to me that it's usually Russia that escalates further. See Crimea.

coldtea 10y ago
>Uhh, I think you forgot quite a few things on the other direction: false flag operation and takeover of Crimea, creating and sustaining the civil war in East Ukraine Well, there are two things: Crimea is a territory with 60% citizens of Russian descent (and favoring Russia). And it's right next to Russia's borders to boot, and with historical ties to it. Heck, the US meddle with other countries, or even downright invade them (to bring democracy), when their "strategic interests" are hurt 20.000 miles away in places that they have no business to be, from Panama to Iraq, Vietnam, Philippines, Chile and countless other places. This makes them arguing about somebody else taking care of such a thing next to their door is beyond hypocritical. And it makes the same of everyone singling out Russia -- if one can't see the blatant imbalance of bad actions between the two players, I don't know what to say. Imagine if Baja California was 60% WASPs with historical ties to the US, and, say, Russia had just helped topple the government of Mexico with some crazy pro-nazi friendly lackeys -- which were also hostile towards those Baja California people. That's more like the reality of that. >ongoing infowar with RT spreading lies and inciting protests (eg the false story of a Russian-German girl being raped by migrants in Germany, even after revealed to be wrong still perpetuated by Russian ministers through TV interviews) That's more like juvenile delinquent behavior compared to the "spreading lies and inciting protests" one sees from the other side (which maintains and sponsors tons of "dissident" groups. And these lies are not idea, they are also put to good use with actual political effects (and sanctions and other such things) -- it's not just some ministers perpetuating some false story. Heck, WMDs anyone? When the US controls the majority of the Western media and its views dominate almost everything mainstream, plus maintaining tons of "Radio Free Europe" style operations (and internal stuff from Operation Mockingbird onwards), it's ridiculous to even talk about Russian "astroturfing operations to target EU news sites". It's like the British Colonial Army complaining that the Zulus are armed with spears. Or, an even better comparison, some Southern bigot complaining about "reverse racism". >Not saying the US isn't absolutely abusing its power, but as a European we take US insanity any time over Putin. Maybe if I was an Eastern European (and had historical grudges over USSR) I'd see it differently, but I'm a European too and didn't have Russian install a junta in my country -- the US did. And what the EU has had since the crisis, which is a direct rule of financial interests with the help of the EU/EC bureaucracy is worse for me than any Russian "insanity".

coldtea 10y ago

>Uhh, I think you forgot quite a few things on the other direction: false flag operation and takeover of Crimea, creating and sustaining the civil war in East Ukraine Well, there are two things: Crimea is a territory with 60% citizens of Russian descent (and favoring Russia). And it's right next to Russia's borders to boot, and with historical ties to it. Heck, the US meddle with other countries, or even downright invade them (to bring democracy), when their "strategic interests" are hurt 20.000 miles away in places that they have no business to be, from Panama to Iraq, Vietnam, Philippines, Chile and countless other places. This makes them arguing about somebody else taking care of such a thing next to their door is beyond hypocritical. And it makes the same of everyone singling out Russia -- if one can't see the blatant imbalance of bad actions between the two players, I don't know what to say. Imagine if Baja California was 60% WASPs with historical ties to the US, and, say, Russia had just helped topple the government of Mexico with some crazy pro-nazi friendly lackeys -- which were also hostile towards those Baja California people. That's more like the reality of that. >ongoing infowar with RT spreading lies and inciting protests (eg the false story of a Russian-German girl being raped by migrants in Germany, even after revealed to be wrong still perpetuated by Russian ministers through TV interviews) That's more like juvenile delinquent behavior compared to the "spreading lies and inciting protests" one sees from the other side (which maintains and sponsors tons of "dissident" groups. And these lies are not idea, they are also put to good use with actual political effects (and sanctions and other such things) -- it's not just some ministers perpetuating some false story. Heck, WMDs anyone? When the US controls the majority of the Western media and its views dominate almost everything mainstream, plus maintaining tons of "Radio Free Europe" style operations (and internal stuff from Operation Mockingbird onwards), it's ridiculous to even talk about Russian "astroturfing operations to target EU news sites". It's like the British Colonial Army complaining that the Zulus are armed with spears. Or, an even better comparison, some Southern bigot complaining about "reverse racism". >Not saying the US isn't absolutely abusing its power, but as a European we take US insanity any time over Putin. Maybe if I was an Eastern European (and had historical grudges over USSR) I'd see it differently, but I'm a European too and didn't have Russian install a junta in my country -- the US did. And what the EU has had since the crisis, which is a direct rule of financial interests with the help of the EU/EC bureaucracy is worse for me than any Russian "insanity".