6 ms·

The Chan Zuckerberg Initiative makes its first investment

47 points by crufo 10y ago

blackbagboys 10y ago
I suppose I can't help but admire the chutzpah of cloaking a tax deductible scheme to drive down your labor costs as a noble quest to "advance human potential". Now where did I put my black and red flags...
- lazaroclapp 10y ago
  Doesn't it do both of those, plus also potentially open Facebook to being out-competed by a Nigerian or Kenyan software company? Even if his particular brand of education is in the particular areas in which his company employs people (note that it is also his own personal area of education and expertise), I don't think that should be enough to dismiss funding education as a valid tax deductible charity. Now, if in the next months it emerges that this coding schools teach only FB specific technologies (e.g. something like how to build a Messenger bot, I don't even mean PHP/Hack or React) or that admission is contingent in signing a contract to work for FB afterwards, I would feel very differently. To put an extreme example, do you consider the companies listed here: http://www.blackgirlscode.com/partners.html http://www.blackgirlscode.com/partners.html to also be participating in a tax deductible anti-labor scheme? If not, where is the line? Sure, maybe at some point Zuckerberg will realize, like Gates did before him, that the world still needs more anti-malaria drugs and nets, before it needs computers and programming courses. Nonetheless, education initiatives (even highly-targeted professional-skill education initiatives) are charities and do produce a public benefit. Whether or not that benefit exceeds the benefit produced by the taxes that would otherwise have been collected leads to a lengthy policy discussion about when and how to tax charitable donations, which might indeed be an option.
  - blackbagboys 10y ago
    Andela's business model is to provide low-cost contract labor to large tech firms. This is of course delightful for those African students who benefit from the program and from a business perspective a wise investment by the Chan Zuckerbeg slush fund. I only wish that they would dispense with the nauseatingly self-congratulatory marketing copy.
    - lazaroclapp 10y ago
      Interesting. I was unaware of this, I thought this was an entirely non-profit code school type program. Is training contingent on them working for Andela afterwards? Because if so, I actually fail to see how this can be considered a nonprofit investment (in which case, I agree, it is a good business deal for everyone involved and maybe even a net-positive-do-good business deal, but one that should probably be taxed... ) Edit: I just realized this indeed an investment from a for-profit company to another, which will actually pay taxes (which is good), but seems to be surprisingly describing itself as a philanthropic initiative. So I actually see your point about this being a strange PR spin on it...
    - nl 10y ago
      There are plenty of existing software outsourcing companies. For your argument to make sense you'll need to explain why FB doesn't use them already if cost control is his motivation here.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- cpach 10y ago
  Huh? Would you rather see less educational opportunities for African citizens?
  - igk 10y ago
    I'd rather see some which are honest about wanting to exploit the cost of living diffential instead of acting like charity, or some which are actually nonprofit charities, not startups like Angela and tax optimisation schemes like zuckerbergs fund
- adwf 10y ago
  Whether you believe he is doing a good thing because it's a good thing, or just because he wants to be seen doing a good thing, it doesn't change the fact that the good thing is being done. Tax deductibility does indeed incentivise charitable giving, possibly for selfish reasons. But the person on the recieving end of education/healthcare/whatever, doesn't really care do they? The effect is what's important, not the motivation.
  - blackbagboys 10y ago
    I don't believe that he is making this investment for either of those reasons. I believe he is making it because developing additional pools of low-cost contract labor is in the long term excellent for his business. Additionally, Andela will capture some of the delta between the cost of African and the cost of Indian or American developers, some of which will in turn be returned to the Initiative to finance future forays into making the world safe for oligopoly. I am sure that some localized Good Things will occur as a byproduct of this arbitrage, but let's not pretend for a second that "advancing human potential" and "promoting equality" are actually the metrics by which the success of this enterprise is being judged.
    - rdlecler1 10y ago
      You could make the argument that any of his investments will be in his long term self interest. Even investing in an anti-Facebook could be seen as a self interested move "Oh, this is to show that he doesn't support monopoly"
    - rdlecler1 10y ago
      You could make the argument that any of his investments will be in his long term self interest. Even investing in an anti-Facebook could be seen as a self interested move "Oh, this is to show that he doesn't support monopoly"
    - bko 10y ago
      > low-cost contract labor Phrases like that ring to me to describe a two class of people: a "low cost" tier, and a "normal cost" tier. To me this has obvious racist overtones as "low-cost" is often followed by [nationality]. If someone is willing to work harder, she should get the job, but somehow if that same person is willing to work as hard for less money, she is unworthy? Sure the company benefits from a spread between what a person makes and what they contribute, but they do so already. Eventually if that spread becomes too large, other companies will exploit this arbitrage and start new businesses and bid up the employees compensation. You are free to do so as well assuming you live in a free capitalist society.
codecamper 10y ago
Ah yes. The world really needs more & more developers. This will solve all our problems. Especially if the problems you have is maintaining your grip over people's digital lives.
- miguelrochefort 10y ago
  This is incorrect. 99% of code is useless and should never have been written.
  - Kristine1975 10y ago
    I think codecamper was being sarcastic :-)
clydethefrog 10y ago
Let them eat code.
abpavel 10y ago
When did VC became philantropy?
apsec112 10y ago
If Facebook doesn't try to hire more black developers, this proves they're evil, because they must be racists. If they do try to hire more black developers, this also proves they're evil, because now they're exploiting black people to drive down labor costs. Likewise, if Zuckerberg doesn't donate to charity, he is evil because he's selfishly hoarding his wealth; if he does donate, he's evil because he's trying to exploit the underprivileged to enhance his own prestige. "Friedrich Spee von Langenfeld, a priest who heard the confessions of condemned witches, wrote in 1631 the Cautio Criminalis ('prudence in criminal cases') in which he bitingly described the decision tree for condemning accused witches. If the witch had led an evil and improper life, she was guilty; if she had led a good and proper life, this too was a proof, for witches dissemble and try to appear especially virtuous. After the woman was put in prison: if she was afraid, this proved her guilt; if she was not afraid, this proved her guilt, for witches characteristically pretend innocence and wear a bold front. Or on hearing of a denunciation of witchcraft against her, she might seek flight or remain; if she ran, that proved her guilt; if she remained, the devil had detained her so she could not get away."
- Sagittary 10y ago
  Interesting little historical texts, thanks for posting.
- smt88 10y ago
  > they're exploiting black people to drive down labor costs > he's evil because he's trying to exploit the underprivileged to enhance his own prestige These are straw men. Serious people aren't criticizing him for things like this. Almost 100% of publicly-known charity is, to some extent, designed to enhance prestige. As far as "exploiting" black people to drive down labor costs, it's not like they're Chinese factory workers ruining their health. They'd just be coding. There's some probable protectionist criticism related to hiring Africans instead of Americans, but that happens regardless of the wages that foreigners are being paid.
  - wodenokoto 10y ago
    As of right now, the second highest top comment is the "exploiting black people" thing. I think the parent did well in exposing how people seemingly want to make a witch out of Zuckerberg no matter what he does.
bhudman 10y ago
Is Andela a 501c3 company? Trying to understand the motivations for these foundations to give money away Andela is a for profit company
- blackbagboys 10y ago
  The Chan Zuckerberg Initiative is also a for profit company.
  - flopto 10y ago
    I thought you were joking, but apparently I haven't been following this. The Chan Zuckerberg Initiative is an LLC with no association to any 501c3.
googletazer 10y ago
Zuck's initiative tries to expand the labor pool to reduce Zuck's costs. He's a good guy, but having self serving investments is not what those initiatives are for.
nxzero 10y ago
It's sad that if some attempt to do good, often it's not good enough, but if they do nothing, it's okay. It's unlikely I ever agree with how other people try to do good, but I am grateful that they try. Go some go good; today!
- Kristine1975 10y ago
  >Go some go good; today! I do: I pay my taxes instead of trying to avoid them like Facebook does.
  - imgabe 10y ago
    You don't use any of the deductions or credits you qualify for? How noble.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
zrail 10y ago
Apparently obligatory: Chan Zuckerberg Initiative is not a non-profit. It's a family office that wraps itself in a cloak of philanthropy. It's not a charity, it's a for-profit business. Maybe at some point it will grow a 501c3 arm but thus far it has not.
ucaetano 10y ago
"The publication reports that the Initiative is leading a $24 million funding round for the New York-based start up, in which GV, formerly known as Google Ventures, is also involved." So, what's the difference between it and other VC companies, besides being controlled by a single person?
- twoarrays 10y ago
  Mainly taxation.
bitrotburner 10y ago
Has it ever occurred to you that maybe Zuckerberg is just evil? After-all, just about everything he does in his life includes deception, dishonesty, and theft, right down to the part where he stole Facebook from his business partners.
- dang 10y ago
  Personal attacks are not allowed on Hacker News. Neither is creating accounts to break the HN guidelines with. Please don't do these things here. We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11914829 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11914829 and marked it off-topic.
  - bitrotburner 10y ago
    Ah, my apologies. FTR, I didn't create the account to break the rules. I created the account because I didn't want my name attached to a comment that could offend one of the most powerful people in the world, and one that has a lot of my personal information (Facebook).
pmyjavec 10y ago
Things that make you go hmmm
dsacco 10y ago
Since the article is very light on real details or reporting, I'll post a bit from the original WSJ article. Chan Zuckerberg is specifically leading a $24M Series B Round in Andela. Andela was founded in 2014 and has about 200 developers currently studying with them. There are about 50 mentors working to teach those developers full-time. It has rejected almost all of the applicants; about 40,000 people applied, which means only about 0.5% are actually accepted to study. Those who are accepted to study become "Andela fellows" and learn web and mobile development over four years. According to Andela, they'd like to train 100,000 developers over the next ten years. They are hopeful they can do this with the African population, 60% of which consists of younger people under the age of 25, many of whom are unemployed or underemployed. Andela's clients pay "about half the annual salary for entry-level developers in major U.S. tech markets." With no specific numbers to go on, it's hard to estimate that. Maybe $50k - $60k? Apparently Microsoft is a client company. It appears Andela will mostly use this cash infusion to expand into new African companies and scale up. Could we kill this story or change the URL to the much better WSJ article? I don't understand why this is on the front page. The article has almost no detail or substance. As it stands, it's just flamebait that's getting the usual "Zuckerberg is evil" vitriol. I've never seen a messageboard triggered more easily than HN is when his name or company is brought up. I'd also like to propose to the HN community that we be a bit more accepting of paywall URLs, because the difference between this CNET, ad-ridden article and the WSJ article (and the possible discussion opportunity around each) is huge.
jdpigeon 10y ago
"What inspires me is teaching African refugees how to program javascript" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yFhR1fKWG0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yFhR1fKWG0
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

47 points by crufo 10y ago

I suppose I can't help but admire the chutzpah of cloaking a tax deductible scheme to drive down your labor costs as a noble quest to "advance human potential". Now where did I put my black and red flags...

lazaroclapp 10y ago
Doesn't it do both of those, plus also potentially open Facebook to being out-competed by a Nigerian or Kenyan software company? Even if his particular brand of education is in the particular areas in which his company employs people (note that it is also his own personal area of education and expertise), I don't think that should be enough to dismiss funding education as a valid tax deductible charity. Now, if in the next months it emerges that this coding schools teach only FB specific technologies (e.g. something like how to build a Messenger bot, I don't even mean PHP/Hack or React) or that admission is contingent in signing a contract to work for FB afterwards, I would feel very differently. To put an extreme example, do you consider the companies listed here: http://www.blackgirlscode.com/partners.html http://www.blackgirlscode.com/partners.html to also be participating in a tax deductible anti-labor scheme? If not, where is the line? Sure, maybe at some point Zuckerberg will realize, like Gates did before him, that the world still needs more anti-malaria drugs and nets, before it needs computers and programming courses. Nonetheless, education initiatives (even highly-targeted professional-skill education initiatives) are charities and do produce a public benefit. Whether or not that benefit exceeds the benefit produced by the taxes that would otherwise have been collected leads to a lengthy policy discussion about when and how to tax charitable donations, which might indeed be an option.
- blackbagboys 10y ago
  Andela's business model is to provide low-cost contract labor to large tech firms. This is of course delightful for those African students who benefit from the program and from a business perspective a wise investment by the Chan Zuckerbeg slush fund. I only wish that they would dispense with the nauseatingly self-congratulatory marketing copy.
  - lazaroclapp 10y ago
    Interesting. I was unaware of this, I thought this was an entirely non-profit code school type program. Is training contingent on them working for Andela afterwards? Because if so, I actually fail to see how this can be considered a nonprofit investment (in which case, I agree, it is a good business deal for everyone involved and maybe even a net-positive-do-good business deal, but one that should probably be taxed... ) Edit: I just realized this indeed an investment from a for-profit company to another, which will actually pay taxes (which is good), but seems to be surprisingly describing itself as a philanthropic initiative. So I actually see your point about this being a strange PR spin on it...
  - nl 10y ago
    There are plenty of existing software outsourcing companies. For your argument to make sense you'll need to explain why FB doesn't use them already if cost control is his motivation here.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
cpach 10y ago
Huh? Would you rather see less educational opportunities for African citizens?
- igk 10y ago
  I'd rather see some which are honest about wanting to exploit the cost of living diffential instead of acting like charity, or some which are actually nonprofit charities, not startups like Angela and tax optimisation schemes like zuckerbergs fund
adwf 10y ago
Whether you believe he is doing a good thing because it's a good thing, or just because he wants to be seen doing a good thing, it doesn't change the fact that the good thing is being done. Tax deductibility does indeed incentivise charitable giving, possibly for selfish reasons. But the person on the recieving end of education/healthcare/whatever, doesn't really care do they? The effect is what's important, not the motivation.
- blackbagboys 10y ago
  I don't believe that he is making this investment for either of those reasons. I believe he is making it because developing additional pools of low-cost contract labor is in the long term excellent for his business. Additionally, Andela will capture some of the delta between the cost of African and the cost of Indian or American developers, some of which will in turn be returned to the Initiative to finance future forays into making the world safe for oligopoly. I am sure that some localized Good Things will occur as a byproduct of this arbitrage, but let's not pretend for a second that "advancing human potential" and "promoting equality" are actually the metrics by which the success of this enterprise is being judged.
  - rdlecler1 10y ago
    You could make the argument that any of his investments will be in his long term self interest. Even investing in an anti-Facebook could be seen as a self interested move "Oh, this is to show that he doesn't support monopoly"
  - rdlecler1 10y ago
    You could make the argument that any of his investments will be in his long term self interest. Even investing in an anti-Facebook could be seen as a self interested move "Oh, this is to show that he doesn't support monopoly"
  - bko 10y ago
    > low-cost contract labor Phrases like that ring to me to describe a two class of people: a "low cost" tier, and a "normal cost" tier. To me this has obvious racist overtones as "low-cost" is often followed by [nationality]. If someone is willing to work harder, she should get the job, but somehow if that same person is willing to work as hard for less money, she is unworthy? Sure the company benefits from a spread between what a person makes and what they contribute, but they do so already. Eventually if that spread becomes too large, other companies will exploit this arbitrage and start new businesses and bid up the employees compensation. You are free to do so as well assuming you live in a free capitalist society.

codecamper 10y ago

Ah yes. The world really needs more & more developers. This will solve all our problems. Especially if the problems you have is maintaining your grip over people's digital lives.

miguelrochefort 10y ago
This is incorrect. 99% of code is useless and should never have been written.
- Kristine1975 10y ago
  I think codecamper was being sarcastic :-)

clydethefrog 10y ago

Let them eat code.

abpavel 10y ago

When did VC became philantropy?

apsec112 10y ago

If Facebook doesn't try to hire more black developers, this proves they're evil, because they must be racists. If they do try to hire more black developers, this also proves they're evil, because now they're exploiting black people to drive down labor costs. Likewise, if Zuckerberg doesn't donate to charity, he is evil because he's selfishly hoarding his wealth; if he does donate, he's evil because he's trying to exploit the underprivileged to enhance his own prestige. "Friedrich Spee von Langenfeld, a priest who heard the confessions of condemned witches, wrote in 1631 the Cautio Criminalis ('prudence in criminal cases') in which he bitingly described the decision tree for condemning accused witches. If the witch had led an evil and improper life, she was guilty; if she had led a good and proper life, this too was a proof, for witches dissemble and try to appear especially virtuous. After the woman was put in prison: if she was afraid, this proved her guilt; if she was not afraid, this proved her guilt, for witches characteristically pretend innocence and wear a bold front. Or on hearing of a denunciation of witchcraft against her, she might seek flight or remain; if she ran, that proved her guilt; if she remained, the devil had detained her so she could not get away."

Sagittary 10y ago
Interesting little historical texts, thanks for posting.
smt88 10y ago
> they're exploiting black people to drive down labor costs > he's evil because he's trying to exploit the underprivileged to enhance his own prestige These are straw men. Serious people aren't criticizing him for things like this. Almost 100% of publicly-known charity is, to some extent, designed to enhance prestige. As far as "exploiting" black people to drive down labor costs, it's not like they're Chinese factory workers ruining their health. They'd just be coding. There's some probable protectionist criticism related to hiring Africans instead of Americans, but that happens regardless of the wages that foreigners are being paid.
- wodenokoto 10y ago
  As of right now, the second highest top comment is the "exploiting black people" thing. I think the parent did well in exposing how people seemingly want to make a witch out of Zuckerberg no matter what he does.

bhudman 10y ago

Is Andela a 501c3 company? Trying to understand the motivations for these foundations to give money away Andela is a for profit company

blackbagboys 10y ago
The Chan Zuckerberg Initiative is also a for profit company.
- flopto 10y ago
  I thought you were joking, but apparently I haven't been following this. The Chan Zuckerberg Initiative is an LLC with no association to any 501c3.

googletazer 10y ago

Zuck's initiative tries to expand the labor pool to reduce Zuck's costs. He's a good guy, but having self serving investments is not what those initiatives are for.

nxzero 10y ago

It's sad that if some attempt to do good, often it's not good enough, but if they do nothing, it's okay. It's unlikely I ever agree with how other people try to do good, but I am grateful that they try. Go some go good; today!

Kristine1975 10y ago
>Go some go good; today! I do: I pay my taxes instead of trying to avoid them like Facebook does.
- imgabe 10y ago
  You don't use any of the deductions or credits you qualify for? How noble.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]

zrail 10y ago

Apparently obligatory: Chan Zuckerberg Initiative is not a non-profit. It's a family office that wraps itself in a cloak of philanthropy. It's not a charity, it's a for-profit business. Maybe at some point it will grow a 501c3 arm but thus far it has not.

ucaetano 10y ago

"The publication reports that the Initiative is leading a $24 million funding round for the New York-based start up, in which GV, formerly known as Google Ventures, is also involved." So, what's the difference between it and other VC companies, besides being controlled by a single person?

twoarrays 10y ago
Mainly taxation.

bitrotburner 10y ago

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe Zuckerberg is just evil? After-all, just about everything he does in his life includes deception, dishonesty, and theft, right down to the part where he stole Facebook from his business partners.

dang 10y ago
Personal attacks are not allowed on Hacker News. Neither is creating accounts to break the HN guidelines with. Please don't do these things here. We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11914829 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11914829 and marked it off-topic.
- bitrotburner 10y ago
  Ah, my apologies. FTR, I didn't create the account to break the rules. I created the account because I didn't want my name attached to a comment that could offend one of the most powerful people in the world, and one that has a lot of my personal information (Facebook).

pmyjavec 10y ago

Things that make you go hmmm

dsacco 10y ago

Since the article is very light on real details or reporting, I'll post a bit from the original WSJ article. Chan Zuckerberg is specifically leading a $24M Series B Round in Andela. Andela was founded in 2014 and has about 200 developers currently studying with them. There are about 50 mentors working to teach those developers full-time. It has rejected almost all of the applicants; about 40,000 people applied, which means only about 0.5% are actually accepted to study. Those who are accepted to study become "Andela fellows" and learn web and mobile development over four years. According to Andela, they'd like to train 100,000 developers over the next ten years. They are hopeful they can do this with the African population, 60% of which consists of younger people under the age of 25, many of whom are unemployed or underemployed. Andela's clients pay "about half the annual salary for entry-level developers in major U.S. tech markets." With no specific numbers to go on, it's hard to estimate that. Maybe $50k - $60k? Apparently Microsoft is a client company. It appears Andela will mostly use this cash infusion to expand into new African companies and scale up. Could we kill this story or change the URL to the much better WSJ article? I don't understand why this is on the front page. The article has almost no detail or substance. As it stands, it's just flamebait that's getting the usual "Zuckerberg is evil" vitriol. I've never seen a messageboard triggered more easily than HN is when his name or company is brought up. I'd also like to propose to the HN community that we be a bit more accepting of paywall URLs, because the difference between this CNET, ad-ridden article and the WSJ article (and the possible discussion opportunity around each) is huge.

jdpigeon 10y ago

"What inspires me is teaching African refugees how to program javascript" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yFhR1fKWG0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yFhR1fKWG0

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]