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> Having deadly weapons broadly available definitely increases homicide and mass shootings, the evidence is irrefutable. Really? As I understand it, gun owners

> Having deadly weapons broadly available definitely increases homicide and mass shootings, the evidence is irrefutable. Really? As I understand it, gun ownership has increased significantly over the last two decades, and homicide and mass shootings have gone down over that same time period. It sounds like you think it's "obvious" that availability of firearms drives people dying from firearms, but the studies I've seen don't indicate a link. Kind of like how availability of porn doesn't drive incidences of rape, even though intuitively, a person might expect that it should.

jpgvm 10y ago
Take a look at the stats of mass shootings or even just homicide committed with a deadly weapon in countries without gun control vs those without. The difference isn't just striking. It's actually pretty awful to think about. It's beyond conclusive that broad availability of firearms if not the cause is definitely highly correlated.
- erichocean 10y ago
  > It's beyond conclusive that broad availability of firearms if not the cause is definitely highly correlated. Based on my time hanging out at Slater Star Codex, the amount of shooting deaths varies in the US largely based on culture. If you take a country like The Netherlands and find the equivalent culture in the US, violent crime rates are basically identical—despite the fact that the US has far more guns per capita (within their respective, equivalent cultures). Frankly, talking about the "US" as if it was culturally homogenous is so misleading that it's borderline unethical. Once you tease apart the statistics, guns don't stand out as a problem for certain cultures (again, AFAICT based on discussions with other people I trust).
- novembermike 10y ago
  Well, comparing Mexico (tons of gun control) to say Vermont (not much gun control) doesn't make gun control look very effective.
whyaduck 10y ago
You're looking at the wrong statistic - the number of guns Americans own has increased significantly, but today only about 32% of American households have guns present compared to close to 50% in the late 1970s[0]. The same poll found 22% of individuals owned one or more guns in 2015 compared to 31% in 1985. [0]http://www.cbsnews.com/news/number-of-households-with-guns-on-the-decline-study-shows/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/number-of-households-with-guns-o...
- erichocean 10y ago
  So you're saying that "people who want guns" have far more guns than they used to, and yet, gun crime has decreased?!? That's not exactly a strong argument for increased gun control. (FWIW The statistic that is useful isn't "gun ownership" across all cultures in the US, it's within specific sub-populations. There are huge discrepancies among violent crime across different sub-populations in the US, and without breaking them out, violent crime statistics make little sense, either individually or over time.)
  - whyaduck 10y ago
    Slice and dice how you like. Your implication that "more guns" == "less crime" is, at best, unproven, and your citation of incorrect trends doesn't change that. Conversely, the rest of the large, highly industrialized, developed nations with liberal democracies have tight gun control laws and homicide rates a fraction of the US's. Also, I have no idea what your "porn is to rape as guns are to murder" comparison attempts to illustrate. I don't know how to point porn at someone and..well, that's as far as that needs to go. As syllogisms go, that's pretty damned broken.

jpgvm 10y ago

Take a look at the stats of mass shootings or even just homicide committed with a deadly weapon in countries without gun control vs those without. The difference isn't just striking. It's actually pretty awful to think about. It's beyond conclusive that broad availability of firearms if not the cause is definitely highly correlated.

erichocean 10y ago
> It's beyond conclusive that broad availability of firearms if not the cause is definitely highly correlated. Based on my time hanging out at Slater Star Codex, the amount of shooting deaths varies in the US largely based on culture. If you take a country like The Netherlands and find the equivalent culture in the US, violent crime rates are basically identical—despite the fact that the US has far more guns per capita (within their respective, equivalent cultures). Frankly, talking about the "US" as if it was culturally homogenous is so misleading that it's borderline unethical. Once you tease apart the statistics, guns don't stand out as a problem for certain cultures (again, AFAICT based on discussions with other people I trust).
novembermike 10y ago
Well, comparing Mexico (tons of gun control) to say Vermont (not much gun control) doesn't make gun control look very effective.

whyaduck 10y ago

You're looking at the wrong statistic - the number of guns Americans own has increased significantly, but today only about 32% of American households have guns present compared to close to 50% in the late 1970s[0]. The same poll found 22% of individuals owned one or more guns in 2015 compared to 31% in 1985. [0]http://www.cbsnews.com/news/number-of-households-with-guns-on-the-decline-study-shows/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/number-of-households-with-guns-o...

erichocean 10y ago
So you're saying that "people who want guns" have far more guns than they used to, and yet, gun crime has decreased?!? That's not exactly a strong argument for increased gun control. (FWIW The statistic that is useful isn't "gun ownership" across all cultures in the US, it's within specific sub-populations. There are huge discrepancies among violent crime across different sub-populations in the US, and without breaking them out, violent crime statistics make little sense, either individually or over time.)
- whyaduck 10y ago
  Slice and dice how you like. Your implication that "more guns" == "less crime" is, at best, unproven, and your citation of incorrect trends doesn't change that. Conversely, the rest of the large, highly industrialized, developed nations with liberal democracies have tight gun control laws and homicide rates a fraction of the US's. Also, I have no idea what your "porn is to rape as guns are to murder" comparison attempts to illustrate. I don't know how to point porn at someone and..well, that's as far as that needs to go. As syllogisms go, that's pretty damned broken.