4 ms·

Call me old fashioned (I'm old) but in my day a man and a woman who were each attracted to the opposite sex and were not related were advised not to sleep in th

Call me old fashioned (I'm old) but in my day a man and a woman who were each attracted to the opposite sex and were not related were advised not to sleep in the same bed. I am not defending Jake and believe the victims, but just wanted to make the point that some of the older conventions were there for a reason.

exolymph 10y ago
I promise you, men and women can sleep in the same bed without either one of them committing sexual assault. Saying that this is inherently dangerous implies that men can't control themselves, which is ridiculous and absolves rapists of responsibility.
- capote 10y ago
  I can attest to the truth in this statement: I have slept in the same bed as many people and have not sexually assaulted any of them.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- theorique 10y ago
  They can, but experience suggests that it's a high-risk situation: risk of one or both people misunderstanding or poorly communicating their intentions, risk of one party "trying something" and crossing the line with the other, and so forth. It's better for straight, platonic friends of the opposite sex to sleep in different beds to avoid misunderstandings (or predatory "misunderstandings", for that matter).
  - exolymph 10y ago
    She unequivocally told him that she didn't want any romantic or sexual involvement. >As politely as I could, I explained, “You can have the floor, and I’ll take my bed, or the other way around. If you’re comfortable with it, we can share my bed, as friends. Meaning no physical contact.” True misunderstandings are easily cleared up. Predatory "misunderstandings" are not.
    - cshimmin 10y ago
      Not coming in on any side here, but to clarify this "unequivocal" statement was made years before the incident, it sounds like.
  - CamperBob2 10y ago
    It's hard not to question the character of adults who put themselves in positions like this, repeatedly, and then whine about the (frankly not-so-injurious) outcome on the Internet. And yes, to some extent you can say this of both Appelbaum and Lovecruft. I can't say if Appelbaum is being targeted for social termination, or whatever the three-letter agencies call it these days... but I will say that if he were, I think the story would read much like this, where a lot of his acquaintances are encouraged to pile on with specific yet non-actionable accusations. See the Julian Assange 'rape' case for another example where his supposed crime was actionable, but only in a jurisdiction with laws that 99% of the world finds unnecessary. It's absurd to think that Assange would have found himself facing rape accusations if he hadn't already painted a target on his back, and that seems likely to be true for Appelbaum as well.
    - nkurz 10y ago
      It's hard not to question the character of adults who put themselves in positions like this, repeatedly, and then whine about the (frankly not-so-injurious) outcome on the Internet. Is this different than blaming the rape victim for dressing provocatively? And does it matter if being "provocative" is locally defined as "not wearing a burka"? Or going outside without a male chaperone? On one level, these are simple precautions that likely reduce the risk of sexual assault. On another, they are absurd and outdated limitations on personal freedom. I don't read this or the other accounts as whining. I think it's an account of a community trying to define its norms. At a glance, it looks like those norms are about as far in one direction from mainstream America as conservative Islamic societies are in the other direction. As such, discussion can help those in the middle (who frequently consider themselves enlightened) to understand the perspective of those in the more conservative society.
      - CamperBob2 10y ago
        Is this different than blaming the rape victim for dressing provocatively? Yeah, I think it is. When the victim willingly climbs into bed with someone who has previously made him/her uncomfortable, it's time for even the most stalwart SJW to acknowledge that the situation is not entirely one-sided. I think it's an account of a community trying to define its norms. We've spent the last 10,000 years or so doing just that. So far, the answer seems to be, "Don't sleep with people of the compatible sex that you don't want to, um, sleep with." Of course we haven't arrived at the best possible set of norms yet, but I'm not convinced that unchallenged cries of victim-blaming in cases like this are going to lead us there. At a glance, it looks like those norms are about as far in one direction from mainstream America as conservative Islamic societies are in the other direction. As such, discussion can help those in the middle (who frequently consider themselves enlightened) to understand the perspective of those in the more conservative society. Sorry, I'm not sure what this means.
- labrador 10y ago
  I didn't imply that men can't control themselves. I am saying that sexual arousal in both parties is more likely to occur when they sleep together and misunderstandings may result. It's not binary Platonic/Sexual Assault. There's gray area in between. Why risk it? us oldies might say.

exolymph 10y ago

I promise you, men and women can sleep in the same bed without either one of them committing sexual assault. Saying that this is inherently dangerous implies that men can't control themselves, which is ridiculous and absolves rapists of responsibility.

capote 10y ago
I can attest to the truth in this statement: I have slept in the same bed as many people and have not sexually assaulted any of them.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
theorique 10y ago
They can, but experience suggests that it's a high-risk situation: risk of one or both people misunderstanding or poorly communicating their intentions, risk of one party "trying something" and crossing the line with the other, and so forth. It's better for straight, platonic friends of the opposite sex to sleep in different beds to avoid misunderstandings (or predatory "misunderstandings", for that matter).
- exolymph 10y ago
  She unequivocally told him that she didn't want any romantic or sexual involvement. >As politely as I could, I explained, “You can have the floor, and I’ll take my bed, or the other way around. If you’re comfortable with it, we can share my bed, as friends. Meaning no physical contact.” True misunderstandings are easily cleared up. Predatory "misunderstandings" are not.
  - cshimmin 10y ago
    Not coming in on any side here, but to clarify this "unequivocal" statement was made years before the incident, it sounds like.
- CamperBob2 10y ago
  It's hard not to question the character of adults who put themselves in positions like this, repeatedly, and then whine about the (frankly not-so-injurious) outcome on the Internet. And yes, to some extent you can say this of both Appelbaum and Lovecruft. I can't say if Appelbaum is being targeted for social termination, or whatever the three-letter agencies call it these days... but I will say that if he were, I think the story would read much like this, where a lot of his acquaintances are encouraged to pile on with specific yet non-actionable accusations. See the Julian Assange 'rape' case for another example where his supposed crime was actionable, but only in a jurisdiction with laws that 99% of the world finds unnecessary. It's absurd to think that Assange would have found himself facing rape accusations if he hadn't already painted a target on his back, and that seems likely to be true for Appelbaum as well.
  - nkurz 10y ago
    It's hard not to question the character of adults who put themselves in positions like this, repeatedly, and then whine about the (frankly not-so-injurious) outcome on the Internet. Is this different than blaming the rape victim for dressing provocatively? And does it matter if being "provocative" is locally defined as "not wearing a burka"? Or going outside without a male chaperone? On one level, these are simple precautions that likely reduce the risk of sexual assault. On another, they are absurd and outdated limitations on personal freedom. I don't read this or the other accounts as whining. I think it's an account of a community trying to define its norms. At a glance, it looks like those norms are about as far in one direction from mainstream America as conservative Islamic societies are in the other direction. As such, discussion can help those in the middle (who frequently consider themselves enlightened) to understand the perspective of those in the more conservative society.
    - CamperBob2 10y ago
      Is this different than blaming the rape victim for dressing provocatively? Yeah, I think it is. When the victim willingly climbs into bed with someone who has previously made him/her uncomfortable, it's time for even the most stalwart SJW to acknowledge that the situation is not entirely one-sided. I think it's an account of a community trying to define its norms. We've spent the last 10,000 years or so doing just that. So far, the answer seems to be, "Don't sleep with people of the compatible sex that you don't want to, um, sleep with." Of course we haven't arrived at the best possible set of norms yet, but I'm not convinced that unchallenged cries of victim-blaming in cases like this are going to lead us there. At a glance, it looks like those norms are about as far in one direction from mainstream America as conservative Islamic societies are in the other direction. As such, discussion can help those in the middle (who frequently consider themselves enlightened) to understand the perspective of those in the more conservative society. Sorry, I'm not sure what this means.
labrador 10y ago
I didn't imply that men can't control themselves. I am saying that sexual arousal in both parties is more likely to occur when they sleep together and misunderstandings may result. It's not binary Platonic/Sexual Assault. There's gray area in between. Why risk it? us oldies might say.