4 ms·

> get their feelings hurt in non-illegal ways Since the victims have very little trust[1] in the ability of the judicial system to handle this properly, the qu

by jordigh 10y ago

> get their feelings hurt in non-illegal ways Since the victims have very little trust[1] in the ability of the judicial system to handle this properly, the question about whether what Jacob did is legal or not is entirely unimportant. What matters is if there are victims who are hurt in more than just "their feelings". Given the number of credible people who have voiced concerns, and given that most of them also think that Jacob should get help, not go to jail, it seems very safe to believe the victims. The alleged damage done to them outweighs the possible damage that Jacob could face for being falsely accused by so many people. Anyway, it's not like Jacob has any shortage of advocates in the public. He's charismatic, smart, likable. He'll be able to surround himself with supporters far more easily than his vulnerable victims can. --- [1] Very justifiably, as recent high-profile cases like Brock Turner or Jian Ghomeshi demonstrate.

thegp 10y ago
Might not want to cite ghomeshi as an example of an unfair justice system: http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/christie-blatchford-the-ghomeshi-sex-assault-case-started-falling-apart-right-from-the-start http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/christie-blatchford... http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/a-good-day-for-justice-watch-christie-blatchford-break-down-the-ghomeshi-verdict http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/a-good-day-for-jus...
- jordigh 10y ago
  The judge himself acknowledged that the evidence in this case raising a reasonable doubt is not the same as saying these events did not take place. This is where the law fails. Under intense scrutiny and a barrage of questions of details that happened many years ago, anyone can "lie" or have "inconsistencies". A victim can try to befriend the assailant in an attempt to reclaim or recontextualise what happened to her. The law is ill-equipped to handle this situation.
  - thegp 10y ago
    So what should you do? Not apply scrutiny? Remember, in dubio pro reo
    - jordigh 10y ago
      Remember that the verdict of "not guilty" is not the same as "innocent". We can't take away Ghomeshi's freedom, but we can send him to counselling, warn women, or other things that do not require judges and cops.
      - thegp 10y ago
        Yes it is kinda."innocent until proven guilty". At least if you believe in rule of law.
        jordigh 10y ago
        In theory, the English legal system is biased towards convicting as few people as possible. The idea with "innocent until guilty" and "beyond a reasonable doubt" is to only convict under the presence of enough undeniable evidence. Because it requires so much to convict, in theory most people will not be convicted. This is because we consider the error of wrongly convicting an innocent person to be far graver than to let guilty people free (the cost of this error is even more dramatic in the case of death penalty). If you are familiar with hypothesis testing in statistics, it is the exact same idea. Your null hypothesis (innocent) is accepted by default unless you have overwhelming evidence (a very small p-value) that your hypothesis is not true. In that case, you reject the null hypothesis (and convict). But with a lukewarm evidence (not tiny p-value), you just "fail to reject". You never actively accept the null hypothesis. This is why "not guilty" is not the same thing as "innocent". A court does not attempt to establish someone's innocence or not. A court is biased towards convicting only in the face of undeniable evidence. And that's why things such as whether the victims contacted Ghomeshi after the assault or not are "reasonable doubt" and thus he's acquited. Not because the court proved that the assault didn't happen, but because the court failed to obtain undeniable evidence that it did.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > The judge himself acknowledged that the evidence in this case raising a reasonable doubt is not the same as saying these events did not take place. There is a fairly dramatic, well-known example of this (outside of the area of sexual assault) in the OJ Simpson case where the high (beyond a reasonable doubt) standard of criminal law failed to be met, resulting in a criminal acquittal for murder, but the lower (preponderance of the evidence -- or, in layman's terms, whatever the jury finds is most likely to be true) standard of civil liability resulted in a finding of civil liability for wrongful death. A criminal acquittal means innocence only from the perspective of the criminal justice system, it doesn't mean the act charged was not committed by the person charged.
bsder 10y ago
> Since the victims have very little trust[1] in the ability of the judicial system to handle this properly So, unsubstantiated character assassination is superior? It's ironic that you cite the Ghomeshi case which completely fell apart when actually examined by the judicial system.
PavlovsCat 10y ago
> Jian Ghomeshi If you have 40 minutes to spare, I'd be interested to know if there are any remainings criticism of that case other than those that get demolished here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRyt5FhrBEk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRyt5FhrBEk
- jubalfh 10y ago
  Oh dear. Who comes next, Elam?
  - PavlovsCat 10y ago
    Can you elaborate?
    - jubalfh 10y ago
      Paul Elam.
      - PavlovsCat 10y ago
        And? Use your words.

by jordigh 10y ago

thegp 10y ago

Might not want to cite ghomeshi as an example of an unfair justice system: http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/christie-blatchford-the-ghomeshi-sex-assault-case-started-falling-apart-right-from-the-start http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/christie-blatchford... http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/a-good-day-for-justice-watch-christie-blatchford-break-down-the-ghomeshi-verdict http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/a-good-day-for-jus...

jordigh 10y ago
The judge himself acknowledged that the evidence in this case raising a reasonable doubt is not the same as saying these events did not take place. This is where the law fails. Under intense scrutiny and a barrage of questions of details that happened many years ago, anyone can "lie" or have "inconsistencies". A victim can try to befriend the assailant in an attempt to reclaim or recontextualise what happened to her. The law is ill-equipped to handle this situation.
- thegp 10y ago
  So what should you do? Not apply scrutiny? Remember, in dubio pro reo
  - jordigh 10y ago
    Remember that the verdict of "not guilty" is not the same as "innocent". We can't take away Ghomeshi's freedom, but we can send him to counselling, warn women, or other things that do not require judges and cops.
    - thegp 10y ago
      Yes it is kinda."innocent until proven guilty". At least if you believe in rule of law.
      - jordigh 10y ago
        In theory, the English legal system is biased towards convicting as few people as possible. The idea with "innocent until guilty" and "beyond a reasonable doubt" is to only convict under the presence of enough undeniable evidence. Because it requires so much to convict, in theory most people will not be convicted. This is because we consider the error of wrongly convicting an innocent person to be far graver than to let guilty people free (the cost of this error is even more dramatic in the case of death penalty). If you are familiar with hypothesis testing in statistics, it is the exact same idea. Your null hypothesis (innocent) is accepted by default unless you have overwhelming evidence (a very small p-value) that your hypothesis is not true. In that case, you reject the null hypothesis (and convict). But with a lukewarm evidence (not tiny p-value), you just "fail to reject". You never actively accept the null hypothesis. This is why "not guilty" is not the same thing as "innocent". A court does not attempt to establish someone's innocence or not. A court is biased towards convicting only in the face of undeniable evidence. And that's why things such as whether the victims contacted Ghomeshi after the assault or not are "reasonable doubt" and thus he's acquited. Not because the court proved that the assault didn't happen, but because the court failed to obtain undeniable evidence that it did.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > The judge himself acknowledged that the evidence in this case raising a reasonable doubt is not the same as saying these events did not take place. There is a fairly dramatic, well-known example of this (outside of the area of sexual assault) in the OJ Simpson case where the high (beyond a reasonable doubt) standard of criminal law failed to be met, resulting in a criminal acquittal for murder, but the lower (preponderance of the evidence -- or, in layman's terms, whatever the jury finds is most likely to be true) standard of civil liability resulted in a finding of civil liability for wrongful death. A criminal acquittal means innocence only from the perspective of the criminal justice system, it doesn't mean the act charged was not committed by the person charged.

bsder 10y ago

> Since the victims have very little trust[1] in the ability of the judicial system to handle this properly So, unsubstantiated character assassination is superior? It's ironic that you cite the Ghomeshi case which completely fell apart when actually examined by the judicial system.

PavlovsCat 10y ago

> Jian Ghomeshi If you have 40 minutes to spare, I'd be interested to know if there are any remainings criticism of that case other than those that get demolished here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRyt5FhrBEk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRyt5FhrBEk

jubalfh 10y ago
Oh dear. Who comes next, Elam?
- PavlovsCat 10y ago
  Can you elaborate?
  - jubalfh 10y ago
    Paul Elam.
    - PavlovsCat 10y ago
      And? Use your words.