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I suppose you don't include every laptop ever made as examples of replaceable batteries in practice. The Apple decision you support here is called "Designed Ob

by fnid2 17y ago

I suppose you don't include every laptop ever made as examples of replaceable batteries in practice. The Apple decision you support here is called "Designed Obsolescence" and it is a big reason our way of life is unsustainable. I've never not had to replace a battery before EOL, but I take care of my stuff. Maybe your stuff doesn't last as long. Even though my remington shaver said "no serviceable parts, return to manufacturer for repair," when the batteries died after 5 years of use, I opened up that sucker and replaced the two standard AA batteries with new NiCads. I had to cut the wires and solder in new ones, but I didn't have to pay shipping and I didn't have to wait more than a day. I was actually shocked to see that inside were two generic NiCad AA's. The shaver has worked fine ever since. I don't buy the thicker and less rigid argument. It's simply not good enough to justify the cost in monetary terms or especially environmental terms. Battery covers are a millimeter thick and plenty of devices have replaceable batteries. If Apple can't build a strong enough case to allow batteries to be replaced I'm flabbergasted. I see no evidence to support your hypothesis, definitely not enough to justify the design decision.

doron 17y ago
agreed, its not a motivated by design decision alone, the nexus1 kind of proved that.
brk 17y ago
I see no evidence to support your hypothesis, definitely not enough to justify the design decision. While it's never been my "day job" or primary function, I've had a fair amount of industrial design experience. Both with formal ID firms, and as general product development (most of my startup experience is with companies that produced some sort of hardware). To make the battery removable you need to make a "pocket" for the battery to sit in that is separated from the rest of the electronics. You also need to make the battery pack itself thicker than it would need to be if it was just an internal device (plastic casing, etc.). You also need to add some contacts for the battery and other odds and ends. This probably adds about $3-$5 to the BOM for a device like the iPad. This may sound small, but it is a significant number by the time you factor in the end-user price. It also adds additional weight and design considerations, plus additional thickness to the overall product. Yes, plenty of devices have removable batteries. And in several cases (like the Droid I just got) the battery cover is a flimsy piece of crap that detracts from the products integrity. I suppose you don't include every laptop ever made as examples of replaceable batteries in practice. Yes, I'm quite aware that most other laptops have had replaceable batteries. I've owned dozens of them, and hadn't needed to replace a laptop battery since about 2002. They died of general system failures or complete obsolescence before they needed new batteries. The vast majority of laptops with replaceable batteries have also not been designed for the portability, sleekness, and usage style that the iPad has. Comparing the industrial design of the iPad and its battery to legacy laptops is not an apples-to-apples comparison (pun intended). I really don't think that when it comes to Apple this is "designed obsolescence" as much as it is recognition that we've been Doing It Wrong for many years. I also find it ironically humorous that you cite your electronic razor among arguments of designed obsolescence and environmental/sustainable life style arguments. I use a Merkur Futur razor. I replace only the single blade about once a week. The razor handle will last forever, and it does not have replacement cartridges that are grossly over-priced items. My razor also does not have other environmentally unfriendly items like batteries, and motors and other elements that will eventually wear out and be unreplaceable. Everyone chooses a slightly different way to manage their impact on the world and product choices. Regarding environmental concerns, the way I read this is that if your battery dies Apple will give you a refurbished unit with a new battery for a little more than what a replacement battery would likely cost. It seems like this would encourage users to keep devices LONGER, if they can get a freshened up unit along with a new battery. It's not like it has ever been stated that if the battery fails you must immediately plant your iPad in a landfill.
- fnid2 17y ago
  That's wild, I have 3 laptops right now, one purchased in 2001 (dell latitude), one in 2003 (dell inspiron) and a macbook pro from 2006 and all work perfectly -- all with dead batteries. I still use them. One for my home theater, one for monitoring web sites, and one to type this comment. I'm not saying this to be mean or anything, but I think your stuff could last longer or you could fix them. One time, the inspiron died on me. I called dell and they said i had to send it back for a new mobo at $500. I said, "No way!" and opened it up. Turns out, it was just a loose connection on the power panel! Fixed it for free and saved a little piece of the planet in the process. One thing we agree on is that we've been doing it wrong for many years. The wrong is disposable. The wrong is not repairing things. The wrong is filling up landfills. Apple, with these battery decisions, is exacerbating the problems caused by the wrongs we have been doing for years. Regarding the razor issue, you're right -- not the best example of sustainability, but it was a gift and it was a decade ago before I realized I have an impact on the planet. I no longer shave every day and I use a $19 trimmer once a week (sometimes month or quarter) -- traditional razors just won't cut it (pun intended) after that much growth and I leave a 5 o'clock -- better for the skin and I don't waste shaving cream. When I run across a strop, I'm going to start using my great granddad's straight razor.
  - brk 17y ago
    I'm not saying this to be mean or anything, but I think your stuff could last longer or you could fix them. No offense taken. However, I've been fixing laptops since 1993 when I worked at IBM and was THE guy in the US that all the broken Thinkpad 700's were sent to for repair. My home electronics shop is pretty well equipped. I've lost count of the devices I've fixed or upgraded for myself and friends.
- exit 17y ago
  how do you feel about the environmental concerns?
- cheald 17y ago
  My Nexus One is slimmer and lighter than an iPhone with a larger screen and replaceable battery (with a super solid battery cover, none the less). Apple has some of the best product designers in the industry - I'm going to go out on a limb and say that "technical infeasibility" is not a valid excuse here.
jws 17y ago
I wonder if it is possible to open the iPad? With care, experience, and a little luck you can open an iPhone without leaving a mark, but the smaller perimeter/area ratio of the iPad makes it more difficult to achieve a torsion box effect with edge friction. Glass faced iMacs now use whopping big magnets to hold the glass in, but there isn't room for that in an iPad and I doubt you'd get enough friction to stiffen the unit. My two cents: If I were Apple I'd glue that front glass on with temperature operated adhesive to complete the torsion box. Opening would require a heating fixture (perhaps RF based), resealing might involve a robot to precisely apply the adhesive, since Mr. Jobs would not tolerate any oozing. It would not be a Genius Bar operation.
colinplamondon 17y ago
Sure, but most Apple users replace their iPods and iPhones every two years or so, including myself. I've never run into a battery problem because I've always upgraded before it matters. These products are essentially disposable computers, and that's why I like them.
- fnid2 17y ago
  I'd like to see Apple encourage its consumers to be a little more conscious of the planet and their place in it. America's disposable culture is ruining the planet and taking resources from those who live on the land where it's mined.

by fnid2 17y ago

doron 17y ago

agreed, its not a motivated by design decision alone, the nexus1 kind of proved that.

brk 17y ago

I see no evidence to support your hypothesis, definitely not enough to justify the design decision. While it's never been my "day job" or primary function, I've had a fair amount of industrial design experience. Both with formal ID firms, and as general product development (most of my startup experience is with companies that produced some sort of hardware). To make the battery removable you need to make a "pocket" for the battery to sit in that is separated from the rest of the electronics. You also need to make the battery pack itself thicker than it would need to be if it was just an internal device (plastic casing, etc.). You also need to add some contacts for the battery and other odds and ends. This probably adds about $3-$5 to the BOM for a device like the iPad. This may sound small, but it is a significant number by the time you factor in the end-user price. It also adds additional weight and design considerations, plus additional thickness to the overall product. Yes, plenty of devices have removable batteries. And in several cases (like the Droid I just got) the battery cover is a flimsy piece of crap that detracts from the products integrity. I suppose you don't include every laptop ever made as examples of replaceable batteries in practice. Yes, I'm quite aware that most other laptops have had replaceable batteries. I've owned dozens of them, and hadn't needed to replace a laptop battery since about 2002. They died of general system failures or complete obsolescence before they needed new batteries. The vast majority of laptops with replaceable batteries have also not been designed for the portability, sleekness, and usage style that the iPad has. Comparing the industrial design of the iPad and its battery to legacy laptops is not an apples-to-apples comparison (pun intended). I really don't think that when it comes to Apple this is "designed obsolescence" as much as it is recognition that we've been Doing It Wrong for many years. I also find it ironically humorous that you cite your electronic razor among arguments of designed obsolescence and environmental/sustainable life style arguments. I use a Merkur Futur razor. I replace only the single blade about once a week. The razor handle will last forever, and it does not have replacement cartridges that are grossly over-priced items. My razor also does not have other environmentally unfriendly items like batteries, and motors and other elements that will eventually wear out and be unreplaceable. Everyone chooses a slightly different way to manage their impact on the world and product choices. Regarding environmental concerns, the way I read this is that if your battery dies Apple will give you a refurbished unit with a new battery for a little more than what a replacement battery would likely cost. It seems like this would encourage users to keep devices LONGER, if they can get a freshened up unit along with a new battery. It's not like it has ever been stated that if the battery fails you must immediately plant your iPad in a landfill.

fnid2 17y ago
That's wild, I have 3 laptops right now, one purchased in 2001 (dell latitude), one in 2003 (dell inspiron) and a macbook pro from 2006 and all work perfectly -- all with dead batteries. I still use them. One for my home theater, one for monitoring web sites, and one to type this comment. I'm not saying this to be mean or anything, but I think your stuff could last longer or you could fix them. One time, the inspiron died on me. I called dell and they said i had to send it back for a new mobo at $500. I said, "No way!" and opened it up. Turns out, it was just a loose connection on the power panel! Fixed it for free and saved a little piece of the planet in the process. One thing we agree on is that we've been doing it wrong for many years. The wrong is disposable. The wrong is not repairing things. The wrong is filling up landfills. Apple, with these battery decisions, is exacerbating the problems caused by the wrongs we have been doing for years. Regarding the razor issue, you're right -- not the best example of sustainability, but it was a gift and it was a decade ago before I realized I have an impact on the planet. I no longer shave every day and I use a $19 trimmer once a week (sometimes month or quarter) -- traditional razors just won't cut it (pun intended) after that much growth and I leave a 5 o'clock -- better for the skin and I don't waste shaving cream. When I run across a strop, I'm going to start using my great granddad's straight razor.
- brk 17y ago
  I'm not saying this to be mean or anything, but I think your stuff could last longer or you could fix them. No offense taken. However, I've been fixing laptops since 1993 when I worked at IBM and was THE guy in the US that all the broken Thinkpad 700's were sent to for repair. My home electronics shop is pretty well equipped. I've lost count of the devices I've fixed or upgraded for myself and friends.
exit 17y ago
how do you feel about the environmental concerns?
cheald 17y ago
My Nexus One is slimmer and lighter than an iPhone with a larger screen and replaceable battery (with a super solid battery cover, none the less). Apple has some of the best product designers in the industry - I'm going to go out on a limb and say that "technical infeasibility" is not a valid excuse here.

jws 17y ago

I wonder if it is possible to open the iPad? With care, experience, and a little luck you can open an iPhone without leaving a mark, but the smaller perimeter/area ratio of the iPad makes it more difficult to achieve a torsion box effect with edge friction. Glass faced iMacs now use whopping big magnets to hold the glass in, but there isn't room for that in an iPad and I doubt you'd get enough friction to stiffen the unit. My two cents: If I were Apple I'd glue that front glass on with temperature operated adhesive to complete the torsion box. Opening would require a heating fixture (perhaps RF based), resealing might involve a robot to precisely apply the adhesive, since Mr. Jobs would not tolerate any oozing. It would not be a Genius Bar operation.

colinplamondon 17y ago

Sure, but most Apple users replace their iPods and iPhones every two years or so, including myself. I've never run into a battery problem because I've always upgraded before it matters. These products are essentially disposable computers, and that's why I like them.

fnid2 17y ago
I'd like to see Apple encourage its consumers to be a little more conscious of the planet and their place in it. America's disposable culture is ruining the planet and taking resources from those who live on the land where it's mined.