4 ms·

It makes no sense. It's the most horribly inefficient system. It wastes additional shipping fuel. It requires you to accept someone elses iPad. Maybe there's

by fnid2 17y ago

It makes no sense. It's the most horribly inefficient system. It wastes additional shipping fuel. It requires you to accept someone elses iPad. Maybe there's a scratch on it. Maybe you've saved something to the hard driv... oh wait. The process should be this: 1) Go to newegg.com 2) Search for "ipad battery" 3) add to cart 4) pay with credit card 5) open package delivered the next day 6) remove old battery 7) Insert new battery.

brk 17y ago
Making the battery removable would make the overall design thicker and less rigid. While your proposal is good theory, it is not good in practice. For the most part I think that battery technology has advanced to the point that battery replacements should be the exception, not the norm. I haven't had to replace a battery before a device's EOL in quite some time.
- fnid2 17y ago
  I suppose you don't include every laptop ever made as examples of replaceable batteries in practice. The Apple decision you support here is called "Designed Obsolescence" and it is a big reason our way of life is unsustainable. I've never not had to replace a battery before EOL, but I take care of my stuff. Maybe your stuff doesn't last as long. Even though my remington shaver said "no serviceable parts, return to manufacturer for repair," when the batteries died after 5 years of use, I opened up that sucker and replaced the two standard AA batteries with new NiCads. I had to cut the wires and solder in new ones, but I didn't have to pay shipping and I didn't have to wait more than a day. I was actually shocked to see that inside were two generic NiCad AA's. The shaver has worked fine ever since. I don't buy the thicker and less rigid argument. It's simply not good enough to justify the cost in monetary terms or especially environmental terms. Battery covers are a millimeter thick and plenty of devices have replaceable batteries. If Apple can't build a strong enough case to allow batteries to be replaced I'm flabbergasted. I see no evidence to support your hypothesis, definitely not enough to justify the design decision.
  - doron 17y ago
    agreed, its not a motivated by design decision alone, the nexus1 kind of proved that.
  - brk 17y ago
    I see no evidence to support your hypothesis, definitely not enough to justify the design decision. While it's never been my "day job" or primary function, I've had a fair amount of industrial design experience. Both with formal ID firms, and as general product development (most of my startup experience is with companies that produced some sort of hardware). To make the battery removable you need to make a "pocket" for the battery to sit in that is separated from the rest of the electronics. You also need to make the battery pack itself thicker than it would need to be if it was just an internal device (plastic casing, etc.). You also need to add some contacts for the battery and other odds and ends. This probably adds about $3-$5 to the BOM for a device like the iPad. This may sound small, but it is a significant number by the time you factor in the end-user price. It also adds additional weight and design considerations, plus additional thickness to the overall product. Yes, plenty of devices have removable batteries. And in several cases (like the Droid I just got) the battery cover is a flimsy piece of crap that detracts from the products integrity. I suppose you don't include every laptop ever made as examples of replaceable batteries in practice. Yes, I'm quite aware that most other laptops have had replaceable batteries. I've owned dozens of them, and hadn't needed to replace a laptop battery since about 2002. They died of general system failures or complete obsolescence before they needed new batteries. The vast majority of laptops with replaceable batteries have also not been designed for the portability, sleekness, and usage style that the iPad has. Comparing the industrial design of the iPad and its battery to legacy laptops is not an apples-to-apples comparison (pun intended). I really don't think that when it comes to Apple this is "designed obsolescence" as much as it is recognition that we've been Doing It Wrong for many years. I also find it ironically humorous that you cite your electronic razor among arguments of designed obsolescence and environmental/sustainable life style arguments. I use a Merkur Futur razor. I replace only the single blade about once a week. The razor handle will last forever, and it does not have replacement cartridges that are grossly over-priced items. My razor also does not have other environmentally unfriendly items like batteries, and motors and other elements that will eventually wear out and be unreplaceable. Everyone chooses a slightly different way to manage their impact on the world and product choices. Regarding environmental concerns, the way I read this is that if your battery dies Apple will give you a refurbished unit with a new battery for a little more than what a replacement battery would likely cost. It seems like this would encourage users to keep devices LONGER, if they can get a freshened up unit along with a new battery. It's not like it has ever been stated that if the battery fails you must immediately plant your iPad in a landfill.
- orangecat 17y ago
  Making the battery removable would make the overall design thicker and less rigid. My Nexus One disagrees.
  - brk 17y ago
    My Nexus One disagrees. Is there a control case that compares an integrated-battery N1 with a removable-battery model? Or was this just an attempt at a witty post?
Frazzydee 17y ago
Ah, and this is where Apple's expertise lies. They want a cut in every transaction that has anything to do with their product. From purchasing, to buying apps, to all maintenance. And they give you a feel-good experience from it too. The average customer will be impressed that they got a "new" iPad for only $99. But really, Apple is just changing the battery and housing for you and selling to the next guy for $99. They make a lot more money doing this than by selling user-replaceable batteries.
- fnid2 17y ago
  Not necessarily. They could just charge $99 for a new battery and sell them in the store like they sell laptop batteries which are around the same price.
- tcdent 17y ago
  While there may be a bit to be made in that $99, I really don't think it's much. Every replacement battery Apple sells for their current line of portables is $129. The iPad battery most definitely has a lower capacity and thus costs less, but there is labor involved in refurbishing as well.
- raganwald 17y ago
  This hypothesis doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Apple charges US$129 for a replacement battery for a Macbook Pro. It is clearly less trouble to them to sell batteries through their distribution channels and have customers do the service than it is to deal with the logistics of fooling around with refurbished units. Amongst other things, when they get a unit in they have to test it thoroughly to make sure they aren't passing a lemon on to the next customer. So if they are able to make a tidy bit of money selling Macbook Pro batteries directly to end users for $129, I infer that if they could, they would sell iPad batteries for $99 or even $129 to end users. It doesn't make any sense to charge $30 less and absorb the logistics headaches in the name of making money from service. Clearly there is some other constraint that makes refurbishing the units the least inefficient choice for Apple.
  - Xichekolas 17y ago
dzlobin 17y ago
FWIW, I'm sure the case will be the same with the iPad as it is with the iPhone/iPod ( http://bit.ly/bwIh23 http://bit.ly/bwIh23). I have no problem paying 1/5th the Apple price to replace my own battery. On a mildly unrelated note, I've completely stopped using Apple for anything that can be fixed at home at all. Their prices for replacement parts are obnoxious.
- raganwald 17y ago
  > I've completely stopped using Apple for anything that can be fixed at home at all. Their prices for replacement parts are obnoxious. Have you ever tried to purchase a car part from an authorized dealer? The spread between original parts and aftermarket parts for automobiles puts the computer business to shame.
Anechoic 17y ago
And do what with the old battery? The answer should be "recycle or properly dispose of old battery." But for most customers the answer will be "toss old battery in trash."
- raganwald 17y ago
  My local Apple dealer recycles old batteries. You're going in there to buy a new one, you give them the old one while you're there.

by fnid2 17y ago

brk 17y ago

Making the battery removable would make the overall design thicker and less rigid. While your proposal is good theory, it is not good in practice. For the most part I think that battery technology has advanced to the point that battery replacements should be the exception, not the norm. I haven't had to replace a battery before a device's EOL in quite some time.

fnid2 17y ago
I suppose you don't include every laptop ever made as examples of replaceable batteries in practice. The Apple decision you support here is called "Designed Obsolescence" and it is a big reason our way of life is unsustainable. I've never not had to replace a battery before EOL, but I take care of my stuff. Maybe your stuff doesn't last as long. Even though my remington shaver said "no serviceable parts, return to manufacturer for repair," when the batteries died after 5 years of use, I opened up that sucker and replaced the two standard AA batteries with new NiCads. I had to cut the wires and solder in new ones, but I didn't have to pay shipping and I didn't have to wait more than a day. I was actually shocked to see that inside were two generic NiCad AA's. The shaver has worked fine ever since. I don't buy the thicker and less rigid argument. It's simply not good enough to justify the cost in monetary terms or especially environmental terms. Battery covers are a millimeter thick and plenty of devices have replaceable batteries. If Apple can't build a strong enough case to allow batteries to be replaced I'm flabbergasted. I see no evidence to support your hypothesis, definitely not enough to justify the design decision.
- doron 17y ago
  agreed, its not a motivated by design decision alone, the nexus1 kind of proved that.
- brk 17y ago
  I see no evidence to support your hypothesis, definitely not enough to justify the design decision. While it's never been my "day job" or primary function, I've had a fair amount of industrial design experience. Both with formal ID firms, and as general product development (most of my startup experience is with companies that produced some sort of hardware). To make the battery removable you need to make a "pocket" for the battery to sit in that is separated from the rest of the electronics. You also need to make the battery pack itself thicker than it would need to be if it was just an internal device (plastic casing, etc.). You also need to add some contacts for the battery and other odds and ends. This probably adds about $3-$5 to the BOM for a device like the iPad. This may sound small, but it is a significant number by the time you factor in the end-user price. It also adds additional weight and design considerations, plus additional thickness to the overall product. Yes, plenty of devices have removable batteries. And in several cases (like the Droid I just got) the battery cover is a flimsy piece of crap that detracts from the products integrity. I suppose you don't include every laptop ever made as examples of replaceable batteries in practice. Yes, I'm quite aware that most other laptops have had replaceable batteries. I've owned dozens of them, and hadn't needed to replace a laptop battery since about 2002. They died of general system failures or complete obsolescence before they needed new batteries. The vast majority of laptops with replaceable batteries have also not been designed for the portability, sleekness, and usage style that the iPad has. Comparing the industrial design of the iPad and its battery to legacy laptops is not an apples-to-apples comparison (pun intended). I really don't think that when it comes to Apple this is "designed obsolescence" as much as it is recognition that we've been Doing It Wrong for many years. I also find it ironically humorous that you cite your electronic razor among arguments of designed obsolescence and environmental/sustainable life style arguments. I use a Merkur Futur razor. I replace only the single blade about once a week. The razor handle will last forever, and it does not have replacement cartridges that are grossly over-priced items. My razor also does not have other environmentally unfriendly items like batteries, and motors and other elements that will eventually wear out and be unreplaceable. Everyone chooses a slightly different way to manage their impact on the world and product choices. Regarding environmental concerns, the way I read this is that if your battery dies Apple will give you a refurbished unit with a new battery for a little more than what a replacement battery would likely cost. It seems like this would encourage users to keep devices LONGER, if they can get a freshened up unit along with a new battery. It's not like it has ever been stated that if the battery fails you must immediately plant your iPad in a landfill.
orangecat 17y ago
Making the battery removable would make the overall design thicker and less rigid. My Nexus One disagrees.
- brk 17y ago
  My Nexus One disagrees. Is there a control case that compares an integrated-battery N1 with a removable-battery model? Or was this just an attempt at a witty post?

Frazzydee 17y ago

Ah, and this is where Apple's expertise lies. They want a cut in every transaction that has anything to do with their product. From purchasing, to buying apps, to all maintenance. And they give you a feel-good experience from it too. The average customer will be impressed that they got a "new" iPad for only $99. But really, Apple is just changing the battery and housing for you and selling to the next guy for $99. They make a lot more money doing this than by selling user-replaceable batteries.

fnid2 17y ago
Not necessarily. They could just charge $99 for a new battery and sell them in the store like they sell laptop batteries which are around the same price.
tcdent 17y ago
While there may be a bit to be made in that $99, I really don't think it's much. Every replacement battery Apple sells for their current line of portables is $129. The iPad battery most definitely has a lower capacity and thus costs less, but there is labor involved in refurbishing as well.
raganwald 17y ago
This hypothesis doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Apple charges US$129 for a replacement battery for a Macbook Pro. It is clearly less trouble to them to sell batteries through their distribution channels and have customers do the service than it is to deal with the logistics of fooling around with refurbished units. Amongst other things, when they get a unit in they have to test it thoroughly to make sure they aren't passing a lemon on to the next customer. So if they are able to make a tidy bit of money selling Macbook Pro batteries directly to end users for $129, I infer that if they could, they would sell iPad batteries for $99 or even $129 to end users. It doesn't make any sense to charge $30 less and absorb the logistics headaches in the name of making money from service. Clearly there is some other constraint that makes refurbishing the units the least inefficient choice for Apple.
- Xichekolas 17y ago

dzlobin 17y ago

FWIW, I'm sure the case will be the same with the iPad as it is with the iPhone/iPod ( http://bit.ly/bwIh23 http://bit.ly/bwIh23). I have no problem paying 1/5th the Apple price to replace my own battery. On a mildly unrelated note, I've completely stopped using Apple for anything that can be fixed at home at all. Their prices for replacement parts are obnoxious.

raganwald 17y ago
> I've completely stopped using Apple for anything that can be fixed at home at all. Their prices for replacement parts are obnoxious. Have you ever tried to purchase a car part from an authorized dealer? The spread between original parts and aftermarket parts for automobiles puts the computer business to shame.

Anechoic 17y ago

And do what with the old battery? The answer should be "recycle or properly dispose of old battery." But for most customers the answer will be "toss old battery in trash."

raganwald 17y ago
My local Apple dealer recycles old batteries. You're going in there to buy a new one, you give them the old one while you're there.