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There are no known examples of ring species it seems https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2014/07/16/there-are-no-ring-species/ https://whyevolutionistrue.

by barking 10y ago

There are no known examples of ring species it seems https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2014/07/16/there-are-no-ring-species/ https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2014/07/16/there-ar...

mikeash 10y ago
Interesting. Do I understand correctly that this is more about how they're formed and exactly how continuous the variation is within them, rather than the general idea that you can end up with a population of animals with non-transitive mating viability?
maxerickson 10y ago
There's not really species at all. Species are convenient labels for populations of similar organisms, but the only test for whether 2 organisms can and will reproduce is to see if proximity leads them to produce fertile offspring. Failing this test doesn't prove that they are not reproductively compatible.
- barking 10y ago
  On that basis of that test it sounds like you could not prove that chimps and and gorillas were different species?
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    Sure, but so what, the point is that those are arbitrary human labels. I certainly wouldn't go around expecting them to make a baby based on what I've said, I just phrased things the way I did to try to emphasize the above point.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    Can you prove that frozen custard and ice cream are different types of food? Of course, by definition they are different types of food, with the dividing line being 1.4% egg yolk solids. But one might notice that this dividing line is completely arbitrary, the universe doesn't care about it at all, and there is in fact a smooth continuum between "ice cream" and "frozen custard" and you can make food anywhere along that spectrum. Some thing with species. Yes, chimps and gorillas are clearly different species according to how biologists define species. (There is some dispute over how exactly you define a species, because obvious definitions like "groups which interbreed to produce viable offspring" don't always produce sensible results, but chimps and gorillas are far outside the unclear areas.) But that doesn't mean that "species" is some inherent property in the world, it's just a useful device for categorizing it.

by barking 10y ago

There are no known examples of ring species it seems https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2014/07/16/there-are-no-ring-species/ https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2014/07/16/there-ar...

mikeash 10y ago

Interesting. Do I understand correctly that this is more about how they're formed and exactly how continuous the variation is within them, rather than the general idea that you can end up with a population of animals with non-transitive mating viability?

maxerickson 10y ago

There's not really species at all. Species are convenient labels for populations of similar organisms, but the only test for whether 2 organisms can and will reproduce is to see if proximity leads them to produce fertile offspring. Failing this test doesn't prove that they are not reproductively compatible.

barking 10y ago
On that basis of that test it sounds like you could not prove that chimps and and gorillas were different species?
- maxerickson 10y ago
  Sure, but so what, the point is that those are arbitrary human labels. I certainly wouldn't go around expecting them to make a baby based on what I've said, I just phrased things the way I did to try to emphasize the above point.
- mikeash 10y ago
  Can you prove that frozen custard and ice cream are different types of food? Of course, by definition they are different types of food, with the dividing line being 1.4% egg yolk solids. But one might notice that this dividing line is completely arbitrary, the universe doesn't care about it at all, and there is in fact a smooth continuum between "ice cream" and "frozen custard" and you can make food anywhere along that spectrum. Some thing with species. Yes, chimps and gorillas are clearly different species according to how biologists define species. (There is some dispute over how exactly you define a species, because obvious definitions like "groups which interbreed to produce viable offspring" don't always produce sensible results, but chimps and gorillas are far outside the unclear areas.) But that doesn't mean that "species" is some inherent property in the world, it's just a useful device for categorizing it.