4 ms·

> You’ll have to fire some really nice, hard-working people. But you have to do it with dignity. I wonder if this is part of the reason why there are not too m

> You’ll have to fire some really nice, hard-working people. But you have to do it with dignity. I wonder if this is part of the reason why there are not too many Netflix-like high achieving companies in Europe -- firing people is not possible. Even totally sucking at your job isn't acceptable reason for employment contract termination, that'd be just a reason for further training. You'll have to go through different hoops, usually concerning the company's financial needs -- and which high achiever would want to join a company that announces dire economical times? This (easier to get rid of people) is also a reason behind a recent trend of people-for-hire companies and freelancers-only requirements. Disclaimer: probably does not apply to all of Europe.

dominotw 10y ago
>I wonder if this is part of the reason why there are not too many Netflix-like high achieving companies in Europe -- firing people is not possible. This probably explains why I've never seen my German counterparts ever being fired. The lowest performers are endlessly shuffled between projects, maybe hoping they would leave voluntarily ?
- distances 10y ago
  That's perhaps one way. Or assigning the employee no tasks at all, just an empty room with a desk and chair, and a requirement to be there during normal working hours. No sane person takes that for a longer time. Companies do have longish probation periods (say, 6-9 months) before the contract is final. Within this period either party can cancel the employment at will, with no notice period. This is meant to be the testing time during which both parties can confirm that they are happy with the deal.
  - majewsky 10y ago
    I saw an article a year back or so about an administrative office in Germany that was dismantled. But because they couldn't fire the officers, they put them in a building with nothing to do until everyone quit voluntarily. The toughest made it about over a year. (Can't find the original article, sadly.)
  - sib 10y ago
    In New York City, for example, unionized teachers sometimes end up in "Rubber Rooms" that are basically this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reassignment_centers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reassignment_centers
  - vertex-four 10y ago
    > Or assigning the employee no tasks at all, just an empty room with a desk and chair, and a requirement to be there during normal working hours. Note that this is legally Constructive Dismissal and is likely to wind you up in front of a tribunal.
    - tomjen3 10y ago
      How? They are still getting paid.
      - vertex-four 10y ago
        Removing an employee's duties with negative effect to the employee with the intention of causing them to quit is constructive dismissal in at least the UK, and likely the rest of Europe as much of it has better labour laws than us. Demoting someone is generally OK provided that you have good reason and can provide reasonable evidence that the intention wasn't to cause the employee to leave. It's unlikely that you'd have any good evidence that sticking someone in a room with no duties is something your company actually wants to continue paying the person for.
durzagott 10y ago
Isn't it only difficult to let go employees who've been in the job for more than 2 years? I'm pretty sure that how it is in the UK at least. Even then, there's the option of a PIP, which allows you to quantify their ineffectiveness and give you good cause for letting them go.
- distances 10y ago
  I can imagine UK being a bit different from the continental Europe. In the two countries I've worked in this is handled with a probation period of 6-9 months, but after this it gets much much harder.
  - majewsky 10y ago
    Yes, it's like that in Germany. The probation period is typically 3-6 months (although you can be hired without one). After that, the company may only fire you because of financial problems (and that is basically prohibited in larger companies by the worker's council), or if you misbehave (show up late for work repeatedly, steal intellectual property, etc.).
jasonkostempski 10y ago
So someone can get hired, stop showing up and still get paid?
- distances 10y ago
  No they can't, they have a requirement to be at work and to perform their assigned duties. If they suck at their duties, well, employer should provide training I suppose. But they have to work of course, no question about that -- this was just about firing not being possible "at will" as it is often the case in the US. Also, stuff like coming to work drunk is a valid reason for immediate firing.
  - jasonkostempski 10y ago
    Is it legal to negotiate terms for them to leave voluntarily?
    - distances 10y ago
      Yes, of course. For example in Finland it's ~common in big companies to offer "packages" for employees that leave voluntarily if the company needs to downsize. The problem with this approach, of course, is that the best people take the package and get a job elsewhere. This could perhaps be tailored just for the lower achievers too, but I don't think the big companies have such ranking systems in place because they aren't part of the work culture.
    - Coincoin 10y ago
      Yes, that is a common way of firing people under permanent contracts in Europe. You give them a crappy position for a few months until they get bored to death and then offer them to leave for X months/years of salary.
      - eitally 10y ago
        You used an employment concept here that isn't typical or well-understood by American workers: permanent contract. Americans are well-versed in short term contracts, mostly because of sports, but I doubt more than a few percent of them ever consider that, absent any specification otherwise, all employment contracts are presented as permanent.
gaius 10y ago
These are not firings technically - you are being paid a bonus on the condition that you resign, as I understand it. Has anyone ever said no or are the payouts that much?
- sosuke 10y ago
  The payouts are good and if you said no they would just fire you instead.
- Paul-ish 10y ago
  It is probably the case that in the US, choosing not to leave gracefully means you will get the boot. In countries that make it hard to fire, someone could say "No thanks" to the resignation package and keep working for a significant amount of time.
fpoling 10y ago
In Norway it is typical to start a new company to develope a business idea and transfer employees there through various insensitives like stocks or options. That do allow to "fire" people by closing down an unsuccessful business. The big upside is that one looses the job not alone which feels much better. Also one does not need to explain why one was fired on previous position when looking for new one.
coredog64 10y ago
I was working in an office that had to follow French laws and norms, and I had a _contractor_* that refused to do her job. She wouldn't show up for work, when she did she'd play Farmville or be on Facebook. It was a data entry job with an objective way to measure performance, and she was accomplishing about 1/3rd of the other employees. I couldn't just not renew her contract. I had to document her shortcomings, have her sign letters, take her to meetings with HR, etc. IIRC, it took two months to get rid of her after the end of her final contract (we had to keep her on a provisional contract until we finally satisfied all the requirements). *We were paying salaries based on annual grants from other organizations, so all the positions were advertised (and accepted) as one year contracts.
tajen 10y ago
I reckon this is correct in France: As an employer, if you attempt to fire someone, you will almost automtically end up in a trial and be condemned, whatever indemnities you gave upfront. My father fired someone at age 55 (before it was forbidden to fire people >50yo) and paid cash for the difference between his unemployment benefits and his former salary until retirement. He landed at Prod'hommes (ombudsman) and lost. Even when your company is underweather (Bouygues telecom fired 900 people if I remember, Renault Trucks a few hundreds too), it's a long agony for employees who stay: If you quit, you lose all allowances for unemployment benefits and all severance package; If you stay it's 1-3 years until they sign your severance package, under a shitty ambiance where they'll search for proof that you're abandoning your job. France is the contry which consumes the most anti-depressant per inhabitant, by the way.
- rosege 10y ago
  Reminds me of this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2853251/US-tycoon-refuses-rescue-doomed-French-tyre-factory-country-stupid-labour-laws-communist.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2853251/US-tycoon-re...

dominotw 10y ago

>I wonder if this is part of the reason why there are not too many Netflix-like high achieving companies in Europe -- firing people is not possible. This probably explains why I've never seen my German counterparts ever being fired. The lowest performers are endlessly shuffled between projects, maybe hoping they would leave voluntarily ?

distances 10y ago
That's perhaps one way. Or assigning the employee no tasks at all, just an empty room with a desk and chair, and a requirement to be there during normal working hours. No sane person takes that for a longer time. Companies do have longish probation periods (say, 6-9 months) before the contract is final. Within this period either party can cancel the employment at will, with no notice period. This is meant to be the testing time during which both parties can confirm that they are happy with the deal.
- majewsky 10y ago
  I saw an article a year back or so about an administrative office in Germany that was dismantled. But because they couldn't fire the officers, they put them in a building with nothing to do until everyone quit voluntarily. The toughest made it about over a year. (Can't find the original article, sadly.)
- sib 10y ago
  In New York City, for example, unionized teachers sometimes end up in "Rubber Rooms" that are basically this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reassignment_centers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reassignment_centers
- vertex-four 10y ago
  > Or assigning the employee no tasks at all, just an empty room with a desk and chair, and a requirement to be there during normal working hours. Note that this is legally Constructive Dismissal and is likely to wind you up in front of a tribunal.
  - tomjen3 10y ago
    How? They are still getting paid.
    - vertex-four 10y ago
      Removing an employee's duties with negative effect to the employee with the intention of causing them to quit is constructive dismissal in at least the UK, and likely the rest of Europe as much of it has better labour laws than us. Demoting someone is generally OK provided that you have good reason and can provide reasonable evidence that the intention wasn't to cause the employee to leave. It's unlikely that you'd have any good evidence that sticking someone in a room with no duties is something your company actually wants to continue paying the person for.

durzagott 10y ago

Isn't it only difficult to let go employees who've been in the job for more than 2 years? I'm pretty sure that how it is in the UK at least. Even then, there's the option of a PIP, which allows you to quantify their ineffectiveness and give you good cause for letting them go.

distances 10y ago
I can imagine UK being a bit different from the continental Europe. In the two countries I've worked in this is handled with a probation period of 6-9 months, but after this it gets much much harder.
- majewsky 10y ago
  Yes, it's like that in Germany. The probation period is typically 3-6 months (although you can be hired without one). After that, the company may only fire you because of financial problems (and that is basically prohibited in larger companies by the worker's council), or if you misbehave (show up late for work repeatedly, steal intellectual property, etc.).

jasonkostempski 10y ago

So someone can get hired, stop showing up and still get paid?

distances 10y ago
No they can't, they have a requirement to be at work and to perform their assigned duties. If they suck at their duties, well, employer should provide training I suppose. But they have to work of course, no question about that -- this was just about firing not being possible "at will" as it is often the case in the US. Also, stuff like coming to work drunk is a valid reason for immediate firing.
- jasonkostempski 10y ago
  Is it legal to negotiate terms for them to leave voluntarily?
  - distances 10y ago
    Yes, of course. For example in Finland it's ~common in big companies to offer "packages" for employees that leave voluntarily if the company needs to downsize. The problem with this approach, of course, is that the best people take the package and get a job elsewhere. This could perhaps be tailored just for the lower achievers too, but I don't think the big companies have such ranking systems in place because they aren't part of the work culture.
  - Coincoin 10y ago
    Yes, that is a common way of firing people under permanent contracts in Europe. You give them a crappy position for a few months until they get bored to death and then offer them to leave for X months/years of salary.
    - eitally 10y ago
      You used an employment concept here that isn't typical or well-understood by American workers: permanent contract. Americans are well-versed in short term contracts, mostly because of sports, but I doubt more than a few percent of them ever consider that, absent any specification otherwise, all employment contracts are presented as permanent.

gaius 10y ago

These are not firings technically - you are being paid a bonus on the condition that you resign, as I understand it. Has anyone ever said no or are the payouts that much?

sosuke 10y ago
The payouts are good and if you said no they would just fire you instead.
Paul-ish 10y ago
It is probably the case that in the US, choosing not to leave gracefully means you will get the boot. In countries that make it hard to fire, someone could say "No thanks" to the resignation package and keep working for a significant amount of time.

fpoling 10y ago

In Norway it is typical to start a new company to develope a business idea and transfer employees there through various insensitives like stocks or options. That do allow to "fire" people by closing down an unsuccessful business. The big upside is that one looses the job not alone which feels much better. Also one does not need to explain why one was fired on previous position when looking for new one.

coredog64 10y ago

I was working in an office that had to follow French laws and norms, and I had a _contractor_* that refused to do her job. She wouldn't show up for work, when she did she'd play Farmville or be on Facebook. It was a data entry job with an objective way to measure performance, and she was accomplishing about 1/3rd of the other employees. I couldn't just not renew her contract. I had to document her shortcomings, have her sign letters, take her to meetings with HR, etc. IIRC, it took two months to get rid of her after the end of her final contract (we had to keep her on a provisional contract until we finally satisfied all the requirements). *We were paying salaries based on annual grants from other organizations, so all the positions were advertised (and accepted) as one year contracts.

tajen 10y ago

I reckon this is correct in France: As an employer, if you attempt to fire someone, you will almost automtically end up in a trial and be condemned, whatever indemnities you gave upfront. My father fired someone at age 55 (before it was forbidden to fire people >50yo) and paid cash for the difference between his unemployment benefits and his former salary until retirement. He landed at Prod'hommes (ombudsman) and lost. Even when your company is underweather (Bouygues telecom fired 900 people if I remember, Renault Trucks a few hundreds too), it's a long agony for employees who stay: If you quit, you lose all allowances for unemployment benefits and all severance package; If you stay it's 1-3 years until they sign your severance package, under a shitty ambiance where they'll search for proof that you're abandoning your job. France is the contry which consumes the most anti-depressant per inhabitant, by the way.

rosege 10y ago
Reminds me of this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2853251/US-tycoon-refuses-rescue-doomed-French-tyre-factory-country-stupid-labour-laws-communist.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2853251/US-tycoon-re...