3 ms·

> It's made worse by the toothless UK working time restrictions (look forward to those being gutted even more with an EU exit) that are abuse relentlessly in la

by UVB-76 10y ago

> It's made worse by the toothless UK working time restrictions (look forward to those being gutted even more with an EU exit) that are abuse relentlessly in law and finance (...) I assume you're referring to the EU Working Time Directive, which pretty much every major employer requires their staff to opt-out of when starting a new job? It's a pointless EU law that just adds more paperwork to the recruitment process.

stuaxo 10y ago
If the UK hadn't demanded the opt-out it wouldn't be pointless at all.
- UVB-76 10y ago
  A restriction on working hours is only going to be useful if you have, or aim to create, an adversarial relationship with your employer. People are, by and large, aware of what they are getting into when they start a new job, and working hours are a factor in most remuneration calculations. If the working hours are simply too much for you, then you should find a different job.
  - Thimothy 10y ago
    I'd say that, if the employer doesn't cover a need with a full-time employee working a healthy amount of time, he/she should hire another employee, full or partial time. Thus, unemployment is reduced, more money is put into the economy and the full automation apocalypse is delayed for a little bit. And if another employee can't be paid, then that business is not really viable and should close.
    - vidarh 10y ago
      And for anyone expecting shorter working hours to lead to the apocalypse: They should consider that France, the canonical UK example of "too strict" working time restrictions, for the vast majority of the last 50 years or so have had a higher GDP per capita than the UK (their GDP per capita was lower for a few recent years, but then they overtook again).
  - vidarh 10y ago
    If you actually believe this, count yourself lucky to be so privileged. Given all the shit I've heard from HR people over the years, it is a hopelessly naive viewpoint.
vidarh 10y ago
It is with very limited exceptions illegal to require your staff to opt out, even in the UK, and the same restrictions applies to taking punitive actions against staff that chooses to opt back in. EDIT: For my part I've never worked for anyone asking for an opt-out, and I'd never sign an opt-out, and I would sue if I suspected an employer punished me for not signing an opt-out. EDIT2: Here's the UK government advice on the opt-out [1]. Note: "Your employer can ask you to opt out, but you can’t be sacked or treated unfairly for refusing to do so. You can opt out for a certain period or indefinitely. It must be voluntary and in writing." Additionally there are exceptions for a very small set of types of workers [2]. [1] https://www.gov.uk/maximum-weekly-working-hours/weekly-maximum-working-hours-and-opting-out https://www.gov.uk/maximum-weekly-working-hours/weekly-maxim... [2] https://www.gov.uk/maximum-weekly-working-hours/overview https://www.gov.uk/maximum-weekly-working-hours/overview
- UVB-76 10y ago
  Yes, that's the law, but as I mention in response to another comment, you only defer to the letter of the law if you have/want an adversarial relationship with an employer. Most major employers include the waiver as part of their onboarding process, and if you refuse to sign, although legally they cannot do anything, in practice you're going to start off on the wrong foot with that employer. Likewise, if you turn around to your manager and refuse to work more than 48 hours (having not signed a waiver), although legally they cannot punish you for that, it's hardly going to help your career.
  - vidarh 10y ago
    If an employer is asking me to opt out, they have already started off on the wrong foot with me, in which case I'm very pleased to have legal protections.

by UVB-76 10y ago

stuaxo 10y ago

If the UK hadn't demanded the opt-out it wouldn't be pointless at all.

UVB-76 10y ago
A restriction on working hours is only going to be useful if you have, or aim to create, an adversarial relationship with your employer. People are, by and large, aware of what they are getting into when they start a new job, and working hours are a factor in most remuneration calculations. If the working hours are simply too much for you, then you should find a different job.
- Thimothy 10y ago
  I'd say that, if the employer doesn't cover a need with a full-time employee working a healthy amount of time, he/she should hire another employee, full or partial time. Thus, unemployment is reduced, more money is put into the economy and the full automation apocalypse is delayed for a little bit. And if another employee can't be paid, then that business is not really viable and should close.
  - vidarh 10y ago
    And for anyone expecting shorter working hours to lead to the apocalypse: They should consider that France, the canonical UK example of "too strict" working time restrictions, for the vast majority of the last 50 years or so have had a higher GDP per capita than the UK (their GDP per capita was lower for a few recent years, but then they overtook again).
- vidarh 10y ago
  If you actually believe this, count yourself lucky to be so privileged. Given all the shit I've heard from HR people over the years, it is a hopelessly naive viewpoint.

vidarh 10y ago

It is with very limited exceptions illegal to require your staff to opt out, even in the UK, and the same restrictions applies to taking punitive actions against staff that chooses to opt back in. EDIT: For my part I've never worked for anyone asking for an opt-out, and I'd never sign an opt-out, and I would sue if I suspected an employer punished me for not signing an opt-out. EDIT2: Here's the UK government advice on the opt-out [1]. Note: "Your employer can ask you to opt out, but you can’t be sacked or treated unfairly for refusing to do so. You can opt out for a certain period or indefinitely. It must be voluntary and in writing." Additionally there are exceptions for a very small set of types of workers [2]. [1] https://www.gov.uk/maximum-weekly-working-hours/weekly-maximum-working-hours-and-opting-out https://www.gov.uk/maximum-weekly-working-hours/weekly-maxim... [2] https://www.gov.uk/maximum-weekly-working-hours/overview https://www.gov.uk/maximum-weekly-working-hours/overview

UVB-76 10y ago
Yes, that's the law, but as I mention in response to another comment, you only defer to the letter of the law if you have/want an adversarial relationship with an employer. Most major employers include the waiver as part of their onboarding process, and if you refuse to sign, although legally they cannot do anything, in practice you're going to start off on the wrong foot with that employer. Likewise, if you turn around to your manager and refuse to work more than 48 hours (having not signed a waiver), although legally they cannot punish you for that, it's hardly going to help your career.
- vidarh 10y ago
  If an employer is asking me to opt out, they have already started off on the wrong foot with me, in which case I'm very pleased to have legal protections.