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Chavez is the Kim Jong Il of the Western Hemisphere. Military dictator who runs his country into the ground while talking big, waving his arms around, and think

Chavez is the Kim Jong Il of the Western Hemisphere. Military dictator who runs his country into the ground while talking big, waving his arms around, and thinking he's relevant. It's just staggering that despite all that oil they've got, they've managed to squander most of the proceeds via corruption and mismanagement.

ErrantX 17y ago
I have a really bad anecdote about Venezuelan. We had a guy from Venezuela on our Uni course. Once at a party one of the girls on our course with communist leanings (an American, as it happens) says to him "don't you think it's so great what's going on in your country at the moment?" The look on his face was awful (to this day I dont think she understands quite why he was upset)
- andrewcooke 17y ago
  The trouble is that we / you don't have enough context / social knowledge to extrapolate from this. If the guy is in the USA then it's likely he comes from a fairly wealthy background. And that is absolutely not going to support Chavez. S American politics cover a much wider range than American / Western politics, where you are basically choosing between Pepsi and Coke. There really are Maoists and Fascists and everything inbetween.... And also, American leftist supporters of Chavez are incredibly naive, in my experience. So this is just the kind of cultural disaster you could predict - it doesn't really tell us anything new. I am not criticising you - just trying to explain the general problem with understanding what is happening in Venezuela. It's very had to get a good grip on. So much news is extremely polarized.
  - ErrantX 17y ago
    > So this is just the kind of cultural disaster you could predict - it doesn't really tell us anything new. Oh absolutely (you've pretty much described the situation spot on). It was just a related anecdote :) (incidentally he was fairly poor in Venezuela but had distant family in the UK who managed to pay for him to make it over to university here. The girl was generally extremely naive: but in her eyes was wordly, experienced and a bit radical. You can imagine who was more interesting to hang with - Jose is one of the people that kicked off my fascination with South America)
- gruseom 17y ago
  I had a similar experience once. The thing is, though, that a Venezuelan on an international university course almost certainly comes from the tiny elite whose interests are so opposed to Chavez that they would hate him no matter what, regardless of the interests of the country as a whole. That doesn't make the opposite opinion any truer, of course.
miked 17y ago
In the 11 years he's been in office, the murder rate in the country has increased by a factor of 4, to a staggering 140 per 100,000, the highest in the world.
- lutorm 17y ago
  Actually, it's pretty tied with Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala. Since you imply the murder rate in Venezuela is Chavez's fault, I assume the leaders of the other countries are at fault there, too? Except none of those countries have politics in any way similar to Venezuela's... Besides, actual dictatorships tend to have a very low rate of homicides, at least reported such.
  - philwelch 17y ago
    Well, other than the homicides committed by the dictatorship itself, of course.
  - miked 17y ago
    Doh! My bad. the 140 per 100,000 rate I cited is for the capital, Caracas. For the country as a whole the rate is 54 per 100K, second highest in the world. The 4x increase under Chavez stands. See: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/11/AR2010031102490.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03...
- donaldc 17y ago
  Assuming an average lifespan of 70, that implies that an average citizen there now has about a 10% chance of dying by murder. Gruesome.
lutorm 17y ago
What's your definition of a dictator? Chavez was reelected with 2/3 of the votes, against the leading runner-up with 1/3 the votes, and numerous independent parties have failed to show evidence of the massive election fraud that would have been necessary to skew the results by that much. I know the US thinks that it has a monopoly on what democracy means, but just because he happens to be opposed to the US does not actually make him a dictator. Comparing him to Kim Jong Il shows a massive lack of perspective.
- MikeCapone 17y ago
  From Wikipedia (a pretty neutral source): "The 2010 OAS report also found concerns with freedom of expression, human rights abuses, authoritarianism, press freedom, threats to democracy,[55] political intimidation, and "the existence of a pattern of impunity in cases of violence",[56] as well as erosion of separation of powers, the economic infrastructure, and "chronic problems including power blackouts, soaring crime, and a perceived lack of investment in crucial sectors".[57] The report discusses decreasing rights of those in opposition to the government and "goes into heavy detail" about control of the judiciary. It says elections are free, but the state has increasing control over media and state resources used during election campaigns, and interference with opposition elected officials.[58] According to The Washington Post, the report shows that "Chávez holds tremendous influence over other branches of government, particularly the judiciary";[55] " edit: To make my position clear, I'm not sure if I would call Chavez a dictator right now. That depends ENTIRELY on how we define "dictator". I think he would be under some definitions, not under others. But if we look at the direction in which he's moving, he could very well soon be a dictator under all definitions, and I certainly am glad not to be living in Venezuela right now (or that our politicians here in Canada aren't like him, despite all their faults).
  - jordanb 17y ago
    I don't have much doubt that Chavez is not doing a good job running the country. I also don't doubt that he is a thug. However, he's not a dictator, anymore than Berlusconi is a dictator. He's been democratically elected several times. Each time the election was sufficiently clean that there can be no doubt that a majority of Venezuelians voted for him.

ErrantX 17y ago

I have a really bad anecdote about Venezuelan. We had a guy from Venezuela on our Uni course. Once at a party one of the girls on our course with communist leanings (an American, as it happens) says to him "don't you think it's so great what's going on in your country at the moment?" The look on his face was awful (to this day I dont think she understands quite why he was upset)

andrewcooke 17y ago
The trouble is that we / you don't have enough context / social knowledge to extrapolate from this. If the guy is in the USA then it's likely he comes from a fairly wealthy background. And that is absolutely not going to support Chavez. S American politics cover a much wider range than American / Western politics, where you are basically choosing between Pepsi and Coke. There really are Maoists and Fascists and everything inbetween.... And also, American leftist supporters of Chavez are incredibly naive, in my experience. So this is just the kind of cultural disaster you could predict - it doesn't really tell us anything new. I am not criticising you - just trying to explain the general problem with understanding what is happening in Venezuela. It's very had to get a good grip on. So much news is extremely polarized.
- ErrantX 17y ago
  > So this is just the kind of cultural disaster you could predict - it doesn't really tell us anything new. Oh absolutely (you've pretty much described the situation spot on). It was just a related anecdote :) (incidentally he was fairly poor in Venezuela but had distant family in the UK who managed to pay for him to make it over to university here. The girl was generally extremely naive: but in her eyes was wordly, experienced and a bit radical. You can imagine who was more interesting to hang with - Jose is one of the people that kicked off my fascination with South America)
gruseom 17y ago
I had a similar experience once. The thing is, though, that a Venezuelan on an international university course almost certainly comes from the tiny elite whose interests are so opposed to Chavez that they would hate him no matter what, regardless of the interests of the country as a whole. That doesn't make the opposite opinion any truer, of course.

miked 17y ago

In the 11 years he's been in office, the murder rate in the country has increased by a factor of 4, to a staggering 140 per 100,000, the highest in the world.

lutorm 17y ago
Actually, it's pretty tied with Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala. Since you imply the murder rate in Venezuela is Chavez's fault, I assume the leaders of the other countries are at fault there, too? Except none of those countries have politics in any way similar to Venezuela's... Besides, actual dictatorships tend to have a very low rate of homicides, at least reported such.
- philwelch 17y ago
  Well, other than the homicides committed by the dictatorship itself, of course.
- miked 17y ago
  Doh! My bad. the 140 per 100,000 rate I cited is for the capital, Caracas. For the country as a whole the rate is 54 per 100K, second highest in the world. The 4x increase under Chavez stands. See: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/11/AR2010031102490.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03...
donaldc 17y ago
Assuming an average lifespan of 70, that implies that an average citizen there now has about a 10% chance of dying by murder. Gruesome.

lutorm 17y ago

What's your definition of a dictator? Chavez was reelected with 2/3 of the votes, against the leading runner-up with 1/3 the votes, and numerous independent parties have failed to show evidence of the massive election fraud that would have been necessary to skew the results by that much. I know the US thinks that it has a monopoly on what democracy means, but just because he happens to be opposed to the US does not actually make him a dictator. Comparing him to Kim Jong Il shows a massive lack of perspective.

MikeCapone 17y ago
From Wikipedia (a pretty neutral source): "The 2010 OAS report also found concerns with freedom of expression, human rights abuses, authoritarianism, press freedom, threats to democracy,[55] political intimidation, and "the existence of a pattern of impunity in cases of violence",[56] as well as erosion of separation of powers, the economic infrastructure, and "chronic problems including power blackouts, soaring crime, and a perceived lack of investment in crucial sectors".[57] The report discusses decreasing rights of those in opposition to the government and "goes into heavy detail" about control of the judiciary. It says elections are free, but the state has increasing control over media and state resources used during election campaigns, and interference with opposition elected officials.[58] According to The Washington Post, the report shows that "Chávez holds tremendous influence over other branches of government, particularly the judiciary";[55] " edit: To make my position clear, I'm not sure if I would call Chavez a dictator right now. That depends ENTIRELY on how we define "dictator". I think he would be under some definitions, not under others. But if we look at the direction in which he's moving, he could very well soon be a dictator under all definitions, and I certainly am glad not to be living in Venezuela right now (or that our politicians here in Canada aren't like him, despite all their faults).
- jordanb 17y ago
  I don't have much doubt that Chavez is not doing a good job running the country. I also don't doubt that he is a thug. However, he's not a dictator, anymore than Berlusconi is a dictator. He's been democratically elected several times. Each time the election was sufficiently clean that there can be no doubt that a majority of Venezuelians voted for him.