4 ms·

The aim of BREXIT is to reduce immigration. _IF_ that truly happens (and i seriously doubt that the "Borrises" are actually genuine about this) then local-uk w

The aim of BREXIT is to reduce immigration. _IF_ that truly happens (and i seriously doubt that the "Borrises" are actually genuine about this) then local-uk wages will increase especially for skilled labour. Low wage producer's will simply be replaced by foreign imports, increasing the deficit unless of course the UK engages in a protectionist war with EU and EVERYONE else... (which it won't do).

ZenoArrow 10y ago
> "The aim of BREXIT is to reduce immigration." That's not the only aim. The EU isn't truly democratic. The central body of power in the EU is the European Commission, and they're not democratically elected. The European Commission is the only group in the EU with the power to propose new legislation, no members of the European Parliament can do so. I'll be voting to leave purely because I believe in democracy. I want elected representatives to have the power to represent the public, instead of being employed provide a veneer of respectability to a deeply flawed institution. I certainly won't be doing so over immigration as I believe immigration provides a net benefit to the UK.
- DanBC 10y ago
  > I'll be voting to leave purely because I believe in democracy. Without looking them up are you able to name all your local councillors?
  - ZenoArrow 10y ago
    No. Your point being?
    - DanBC 10y ago
      A lot of people talk about how important democracy is, but when given an important bit of local democracy they show they're not involved. Most people don't know the differences between the town council and their local authority; they have no idea who their councillors are; they might not even know which party has control.
      - ZenoArrow 10y ago
        So in other words you assumed that I didn't care about local democracy, and therefore implied I was a hypocrite. For what it's worth, I voted in the local elections held this year, have voted in general elections, and have even met up with my local MP to discuss financial reform. Furthermore, the idea of a representative democracy is that you elect people to work on your behalf. You do so because it's a full time job to stay abreast about all political issues. Even if I knew the names of all my local councillors, knowing their names doesn't give me any insight into the decisions being made. Most of us have a limited range of interests, I could tell you about political activity I'm interested in, would that satisfy you that I'm paying attention?
  - throwaway049 10y ago
    I can't, but I did get a vote to pick them. I don't think your question speaks to the issue of the European commission being unelected.
    - DanBC 10y ago
      It might not be the case for HN readers, but a lot of people who complain about the undemocratic nature of EU never vote in local elections. Being interested in democracy means using your vote (or making a decision to abstain). Not bothering to vote is incompatible with the declared interest in democracy.
      - UVB-76 10y ago
        > Being interested in democracy means using your vote (or making a decision to abstain). Not bothering to vote is incompatible with the declared interest in democracy. That's a strawman. Plenty of people are not interested in all or part of a democratic system, but appreciate that it exists, and that it provides channels through which they can influence the way they are governed, if they deem it necessary.
- jerven 10y ago
  The European Commission is elected by the heads of government of the EU nations. That is a whole lot more democratic than the house of Lords. It is actually as democratic as the manner in which the ministers in the UK are selected. And in any case a whole lot easier to fix, than to leave for. Because to be honest the EU is more democratic than Westminster. After all Farage is in the EU parliament but not the UK one.
  - ZenoArrow 10y ago
    I'd be up for reforming the House of Lords as well, it's not an either/or situation. The members of the European Commission are appointed by the heads of government from the member countries, however this matters very little when the mandate of the commissioners is clearly stated to be to represent the interests of Europe over the member countries. This isn't based on some biased media story, this comes directly from the horse's mouth. Check out this video from the European Commission's own YouTube channel... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWpgO1EPO_Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWpgO1EPO_Y From that video... “The commission is a group of politicians, men and women, who meet every Wednesday in Brussels. We call them Commissioners. Together they form the government of Europe so to speak. They all have their own specific responsibilities and come from different countries. It is their role to defend the general interest of the European Union. When they take their oaths, they swear not to accept instructions from their own government.” > "And in any case a whole lot easier to fix, than to leave for." Perhaps I haven't made it clear. The only ones with power to reform the EU to make it more democratic are the EC, who would need to voluntarily give up their power to do so. How are you expecting that to pan out?
- matrizao 10y ago
  The European Commission functions like a government. Do you vote for the government, or for MPs that then choose the government? It's the same.
  - ZenoArrow 10y ago
    It's not the same. The MPs that I vote for can propose legislation, the MEPs that I vote for cannot. Without the power to propose legislation, how do you expect MEPs to truly represent your interests in the EU?
    - matrizao 10y ago
      The MEPs represent your interests by electing and controlling the European Commission who in turn propose laws. I reckon that if you believe that having the parliament proposing laws is that important, you should get in touch with your MEP
      - ZenoArrow 10y ago
        The MEPs don't elect the European Commission. The MEPs do not control the European Commission. You should really look into how the European Union functions, the MEPs have far less power than you seem to believe.
- helen842000 10y ago
  It is the elected European Parliament that passes the laws proposed by the Commission. Also the Parliament can ask the Commission to propose legislation.
  - ZenoArrow 10y ago
    > "It is the elected European Parliament that passes the laws proposed by the Commission." All they can do is say yes or no. The European Commission can keep pushing forward the same legislation until they get a yes. Even referendums aren't enough to stop the EC, look at what happened with the vote on the European Constitution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_establishing_a_Constitution_for_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_establishing_a_Constitu... As you can see, the outcome of the referendums resulted in the European Constitution being rejected, so what the EC did was to take the main changes and push them through as amendments to existing agreements. This group of changes is known as the Lisbon Treaty. > "Also the Parliament can ask the Commission to propose legislation." That's not the same as having the power to propose legislation. Anyone can ask the Commission to propose legislation, including lobbyists (there are over 30,000 lobbyists in Brussels, and you can be sure they're focused on influencing the ones with power to make changes https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/08/lobbyists-european-parliament-brussels-corporate https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/08/lobbyists-euro... ) and the general public (through a European Citizens Initiative). Just because you can ask for changes, doesn't mean the EC has to listen to you. As I've said in a different comment, the main priority of the EC is to work in the best interests of the EU, not the individual member countries.
    - ghzghz2 10y ago
      > Just because you can ask for changes, doesn't mean the EC has to listen to you. As I've said in a different comment, the main priority of the EC is to work in the best interests of the EU, not the individual member countries. The parliament has power of censure over the EC so in theory the EC could be made to listen. I do agree with you that the EU is a democratic mess and share your concern about lobbyists. I do however struggle to swallow Democracy as the main argument for Brexit when we have: * a government in the UK elected by 25% of the possible electorate. * parties gaining > 10% of the national vote having no representation in UK parliament * an un-elected house of Lords * a prime minister (who we technically don't elect and who can change at any time) who magically inherits powers from the queen to sign treaties and go to war I look forward to the shining lights of the Brexit camp taking on these democratic deficits with the same enthusiasm in the future.
- vidarh 10y ago
  The UK isn't truly democratic. We're currently governed by a government that has a parliamentary majority despite only getting the support of 37% of voter. With the way the UK electoral system is currently set up, the extreme results it produces makes me very happy to have the EU to moderate things. What the last 20 years shows us is that UK governments have systematically tried to erode workers rights, remove social safety nets and strip away human rights, and it's largely been the EU that has held it in check. I fear what we'll see in the case of an exit, with a government no longer reigned in by the EU treaties.
  - ZenoArrow 10y ago
    I agree that the UK needs electoral reform too. Ideally we'd get our own house in order before leaving the EU, but sadly if we vote to stay now we're unlikely to get the opportunity to vote again any time soon. The last UK referendum on the EU was in 1975. A vote to stay would probably mean staying in the EU for the bulk of my lifetime. If we want out, we should take the opportunity now. As for the EU holding the UK in check, that's not quite accurate. It's true that the current Conservative government under Cameron has been damaging to public services, but that's not always been the case over the past 20 years. The Labour governments of Blair and Brown, for all their flaws, weren't pursuing the same type of wholesale undermining of public services. As an added bonus, if you want the policies of the Conservatives to stop, leaving the EU is likely to divide the Conservatives more than most parties, leading to a weaker party at the next general election. Lastly, the EU does not always act to protect the people of the UK. As an example, take a look at what happened to the UK fishing industry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Fisheries_Policy#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Fisheries_Policy#Critic...

ZenoArrow 10y ago

> "The aim of BREXIT is to reduce immigration." That's not the only aim. The EU isn't truly democratic. The central body of power in the EU is the European Commission, and they're not democratically elected. The European Commission is the only group in the EU with the power to propose new legislation, no members of the European Parliament can do so. I'll be voting to leave purely because I believe in democracy. I want elected representatives to have the power to represent the public, instead of being employed provide a veneer of respectability to a deeply flawed institution. I certainly won't be doing so over immigration as I believe immigration provides a net benefit to the UK.

DanBC 10y ago
> I'll be voting to leave purely because I believe in democracy. Without looking them up are you able to name all your local councillors?
- ZenoArrow 10y ago
  No. Your point being?
  - DanBC 10y ago
    A lot of people talk about how important democracy is, but when given an important bit of local democracy they show they're not involved. Most people don't know the differences between the town council and their local authority; they have no idea who their councillors are; they might not even know which party has control.
    - ZenoArrow 10y ago
      So in other words you assumed that I didn't care about local democracy, and therefore implied I was a hypocrite. For what it's worth, I voted in the local elections held this year, have voted in general elections, and have even met up with my local MP to discuss financial reform. Furthermore, the idea of a representative democracy is that you elect people to work on your behalf. You do so because it's a full time job to stay abreast about all political issues. Even if I knew the names of all my local councillors, knowing their names doesn't give me any insight into the decisions being made. Most of us have a limited range of interests, I could tell you about political activity I'm interested in, would that satisfy you that I'm paying attention?
- throwaway049 10y ago
  I can't, but I did get a vote to pick them. I don't think your question speaks to the issue of the European commission being unelected.
  - DanBC 10y ago
    It might not be the case for HN readers, but a lot of people who complain about the undemocratic nature of EU never vote in local elections. Being interested in democracy means using your vote (or making a decision to abstain). Not bothering to vote is incompatible with the declared interest in democracy.
    - UVB-76 10y ago
      > Being interested in democracy means using your vote (or making a decision to abstain). Not bothering to vote is incompatible with the declared interest in democracy. That's a strawman. Plenty of people are not interested in all or part of a democratic system, but appreciate that it exists, and that it provides channels through which they can influence the way they are governed, if they deem it necessary.
jerven 10y ago
The European Commission is elected by the heads of government of the EU nations. That is a whole lot more democratic than the house of Lords. It is actually as democratic as the manner in which the ministers in the UK are selected. And in any case a whole lot easier to fix, than to leave for. Because to be honest the EU is more democratic than Westminster. After all Farage is in the EU parliament but not the UK one.
- ZenoArrow 10y ago
  I'd be up for reforming the House of Lords as well, it's not an either/or situation. The members of the European Commission are appointed by the heads of government from the member countries, however this matters very little when the mandate of the commissioners is clearly stated to be to represent the interests of Europe over the member countries. This isn't based on some biased media story, this comes directly from the horse's mouth. Check out this video from the European Commission's own YouTube channel... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWpgO1EPO_Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWpgO1EPO_Y From that video... “The commission is a group of politicians, men and women, who meet every Wednesday in Brussels. We call them Commissioners. Together they form the government of Europe so to speak. They all have their own specific responsibilities and come from different countries. It is their role to defend the general interest of the European Union. When they take their oaths, they swear not to accept instructions from their own government.” > "And in any case a whole lot easier to fix, than to leave for." Perhaps I haven't made it clear. The only ones with power to reform the EU to make it more democratic are the EC, who would need to voluntarily give up their power to do so. How are you expecting that to pan out?
matrizao 10y ago
The European Commission functions like a government. Do you vote for the government, or for MPs that then choose the government? It's the same.
- ZenoArrow 10y ago
  It's not the same. The MPs that I vote for can propose legislation, the MEPs that I vote for cannot. Without the power to propose legislation, how do you expect MEPs to truly represent your interests in the EU?
  - matrizao 10y ago
    The MEPs represent your interests by electing and controlling the European Commission who in turn propose laws. I reckon that if you believe that having the parliament proposing laws is that important, you should get in touch with your MEP
    - ZenoArrow 10y ago
      The MEPs don't elect the European Commission. The MEPs do not control the European Commission. You should really look into how the European Union functions, the MEPs have far less power than you seem to believe.
helen842000 10y ago
It is the elected European Parliament that passes the laws proposed by the Commission. Also the Parliament can ask the Commission to propose legislation.
- ZenoArrow 10y ago
  > "It is the elected European Parliament that passes the laws proposed by the Commission." All they can do is say yes or no. The European Commission can keep pushing forward the same legislation until they get a yes. Even referendums aren't enough to stop the EC, look at what happened with the vote on the European Constitution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_establishing_a_Constitution_for_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_establishing_a_Constitu... As you can see, the outcome of the referendums resulted in the European Constitution being rejected, so what the EC did was to take the main changes and push them through as amendments to existing agreements. This group of changes is known as the Lisbon Treaty. > "Also the Parliament can ask the Commission to propose legislation." That's not the same as having the power to propose legislation. Anyone can ask the Commission to propose legislation, including lobbyists (there are over 30,000 lobbyists in Brussels, and you can be sure they're focused on influencing the ones with power to make changes https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/08/lobbyists-european-parliament-brussels-corporate https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/08/lobbyists-euro... ) and the general public (through a European Citizens Initiative). Just because you can ask for changes, doesn't mean the EC has to listen to you. As I've said in a different comment, the main priority of the EC is to work in the best interests of the EU, not the individual member countries.
  - ghzghz2 10y ago
    > Just because you can ask for changes, doesn't mean the EC has to listen to you. As I've said in a different comment, the main priority of the EC is to work in the best interests of the EU, not the individual member countries. The parliament has power of censure over the EC so in theory the EC could be made to listen. I do agree with you that the EU is a democratic mess and share your concern about lobbyists. I do however struggle to swallow Democracy as the main argument for Brexit when we have: * a government in the UK elected by 25% of the possible electorate. * parties gaining > 10% of the national vote having no representation in UK parliament * an un-elected house of Lords * a prime minister (who we technically don't elect and who can change at any time) who magically inherits powers from the queen to sign treaties and go to war I look forward to the shining lights of the Brexit camp taking on these democratic deficits with the same enthusiasm in the future.
vidarh 10y ago
The UK isn't truly democratic. We're currently governed by a government that has a parliamentary majority despite only getting the support of 37% of voter. With the way the UK electoral system is currently set up, the extreme results it produces makes me very happy to have the EU to moderate things. What the last 20 years shows us is that UK governments have systematically tried to erode workers rights, remove social safety nets and strip away human rights, and it's largely been the EU that has held it in check. I fear what we'll see in the case of an exit, with a government no longer reigned in by the EU treaties.
- ZenoArrow 10y ago
  I agree that the UK needs electoral reform too. Ideally we'd get our own house in order before leaving the EU, but sadly if we vote to stay now we're unlikely to get the opportunity to vote again any time soon. The last UK referendum on the EU was in 1975. A vote to stay would probably mean staying in the EU for the bulk of my lifetime. If we want out, we should take the opportunity now. As for the EU holding the UK in check, that's not quite accurate. It's true that the current Conservative government under Cameron has been damaging to public services, but that's not always been the case over the past 20 years. The Labour governments of Blair and Brown, for all their flaws, weren't pursuing the same type of wholesale undermining of public services. As an added bonus, if you want the policies of the Conservatives to stop, leaving the EU is likely to divide the Conservatives more than most parties, leading to a weaker party at the next general election. Lastly, the EU does not always act to protect the people of the UK. As an example, take a look at what happened to the UK fishing industry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Fisheries_Policy#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Fisheries_Policy#Critic...