6 ms·

Venezuela's Chavez calls for Internet controls

26 points by miked 17y ago

MikeCapone 17y ago
The Economist has great coverage of what is taking place in Venezuela. There's almost not a week that passes without Chavez closing down a TV station or taking over some private businesses because, f.ex., they raised prices after he devaluated the country's currency by half.
- dantheman 17y ago
  It's the classic socialist play carrying itself out -- the ultimate end is death and destruction. Hopefully the Venezuelans will recognize what's going on and be able to stop it.
  - andrewcooke 17y ago
    From what I've read (I'm afraid I don't have references, and reports vary wildly, this is just my synthesis, following the news fairly closely, as I live in S America) he's doing about average. The country is seeing gains in certain areas (health expectancy, literacy), but they seem to be (within the uncertainties I listed earlier) about what you'd expect from any country that has a sudden boost in (oil related) income. I say all that to basically explain that it's unlikely he will collapse any time soon. He's certainly a populist leader, which I find personally distasteful. And he has little respect for free speech or democracy, which is even worse (from my POV). But I think we're also understanding that the "western model" isn't that great either (articles of evidence: (1) the recent financial fiasco; (2) China). [Edit: I feel I am not really contributing much except uncertainty here. So here's a more decisive take: the biggest problem facing S American politics is, in my opinion, corruption. The kind of approach that Chavez uses encourages corruption and so should be resisted. On the other hand - more uncertainty - most alternatives (particularly military law - this is a big lesson from Chile) also encourage corruption. And, wow, downvoted already... some passive aggressive cunt who hasn't bothered to explain why. What a surprise...]
    - lutorm 17y ago
      "And, wow, downvoted already... some passive aggressive cunt who hasn't bothered to explain why. What a surprise..." Indeed. If you downvote someone's comment, you should at least have the balls to make a coherent reply stating what you disagree with, or upvote such an argument.
      - anamax 17y ago
        Wrong.
    - gruseom 17y ago
      I was just writing a defense of your thoughtful, nuanced comment, about how preposterous it was to downvote it when the parent, which contains nothing but ra-ra-team ideology, was sitting at +6. But then I noticed the charming addendum you put at the end. Come on Andrew, please don't do that. Not only does it violate the rules and spirit of the site, it undermines everything you wrote. In fact it totally spoils it (and changes the subject into a big distraction). Edit: PG said he didn't want to let HN go down without a fight. It's our reponsibility to fight for it too. You've been around here for a long time and made many valuable contributions (definitely including this one, if that noxious bit were excised; there are so few comments on Venezuela that aren't 100% determined by ideological agenda).
      - davidw 17y ago
        Part of that fight should be flagging articles like this that are basically about politics. Look at the discussion it has generated:-/
        gruseom 17y ago
        You pick a bad example. Andrew's comment was unusually thoughtful until the end bit, it was the end bit which derailed the thread, and the end bit has nothing to do with politics.
        17y ago
  - berntb 17y ago
    IMHO, you are over analyzing. Other countries are doing similar things right now (Iran, Russia, etc). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse When the oil runs out, the clow.. politicians will stop making trouble with foreign countries so they have external enemies [edit: which makes all opposition close to treason; most of the troublesome countries are oil countries today]. That is because the politicians will need to make the internal economy run well, so there is anything worth stealing for them. (Just hope they won't think they are too unpopular to keep earning and take off the velvet gloves, North Korean style.)
lionhearted 17y ago
Chavez is the Kim Jong Il of the Western Hemisphere. Military dictator who runs his country into the ground while talking big, waving his arms around, and thinking he's relevant. It's just staggering that despite all that oil they've got, they've managed to squander most of the proceeds via corruption and mismanagement.
- ErrantX 17y ago
  I have a really bad anecdote about Venezuelan. We had a guy from Venezuela on our Uni course. Once at a party one of the girls on our course with communist leanings (an American, as it happens) says to him "don't you think it's so great what's going on in your country at the moment?" The look on his face was awful (to this day I dont think she understands quite why he was upset)
  - andrewcooke 17y ago
    The trouble is that we / you don't have enough context / social knowledge to extrapolate from this. If the guy is in the USA then it's likely he comes from a fairly wealthy background. And that is absolutely not going to support Chavez. S American politics cover a much wider range than American / Western politics, where you are basically choosing between Pepsi and Coke. There really are Maoists and Fascists and everything inbetween.... And also, American leftist supporters of Chavez are incredibly naive, in my experience. So this is just the kind of cultural disaster you could predict - it doesn't really tell us anything new. I am not criticising you - just trying to explain the general problem with understanding what is happening in Venezuela. It's very had to get a good grip on. So much news is extremely polarized.
    - ErrantX 17y ago
      > So this is just the kind of cultural disaster you could predict - it doesn't really tell us anything new. Oh absolutely (you've pretty much described the situation spot on). It was just a related anecdote :) (incidentally he was fairly poor in Venezuela but had distant family in the UK who managed to pay for him to make it over to university here. The girl was generally extremely naive: but in her eyes was wordly, experienced and a bit radical. You can imagine who was more interesting to hang with - Jose is one of the people that kicked off my fascination with South America)
Kilimanjaro 17y ago
One trillion dollars over ten years, just in oil sales, have been stolen by unscrupulous thugs who control the three branches of government and do whatever they please with total impunity. It is such a shame, being the latin saudis, and having brought the country to such a deplorable state. They had a chance and they blew it, now all they're doing is robbing as much as they can while assuring themselves in power forever in order to avoid being judged by international courts for all the crimes they have committed in all these years. More than 100,000 deaths at the hands of government-sponsored killers, more than the afghan and iraq wars together. The perfect definition of Kleptocracy.
DanielBMarkham 17y ago
I'm not going to argue the political theory of this, although I have a lot to say. Instead I'll just say that I continue to feel sorry for my brother human beings in Venezuela. They deserve better than this.
plesn 17y ago
I think this news has it's place on HN, just as well as other news on ACTA, net-neutrality, etc.. But some comments are really inappropriate to put so much political polarity on it. Venezuela is a country relatively "rebel" on US domination: that doesn't make it a devil, but that doesn't make it a angel either: comments on Chavez being a "dictator" seem inappropriate in this thread (what about a previous US president who cheated with voting machines then ?). Essentially, beware of not distorting the perception of things by highlighting many more such facts when they happen in Venezuela than when they happen e.g. in France or Italy promoted by major media companies and securitarian policies. Overall, think about Chomsky...
bh23ha 17y ago
Just like our OUR politicians! Isn't that nice!

26 points by miked 17y ago

The Economist has great coverage of what is taking place in Venezuela. There's almost not a week that passes without Chavez closing down a TV station or taking over some private businesses because, f.ex., they raised prices after he devaluated the country's currency by half.

dantheman 17y ago
It's the classic socialist play carrying itself out -- the ultimate end is death and destruction. Hopefully the Venezuelans will recognize what's going on and be able to stop it.
- andrewcooke 17y ago
  From what I've read (I'm afraid I don't have references, and reports vary wildly, this is just my synthesis, following the news fairly closely, as I live in S America) he's doing about average. The country is seeing gains in certain areas (health expectancy, literacy), but they seem to be (within the uncertainties I listed earlier) about what you'd expect from any country that has a sudden boost in (oil related) income. I say all that to basically explain that it's unlikely he will collapse any time soon. He's certainly a populist leader, which I find personally distasteful. And he has little respect for free speech or democracy, which is even worse (from my POV). But I think we're also understanding that the "western model" isn't that great either (articles of evidence: (1) the recent financial fiasco; (2) China). [Edit: I feel I am not really contributing much except uncertainty here. So here's a more decisive take: the biggest problem facing S American politics is, in my opinion, corruption. The kind of approach that Chavez uses encourages corruption and so should be resisted. On the other hand - more uncertainty - most alternatives (particularly military law - this is a big lesson from Chile) also encourage corruption. And, wow, downvoted already... some passive aggressive cunt who hasn't bothered to explain why. What a surprise...]
  - lutorm 17y ago
    "And, wow, downvoted already... some passive aggressive cunt who hasn't bothered to explain why. What a surprise..." Indeed. If you downvote someone's comment, you should at least have the balls to make a coherent reply stating what you disagree with, or upvote such an argument.
    - anamax 17y ago
      Wrong.
  - gruseom 17y ago
    I was just writing a defense of your thoughtful, nuanced comment, about how preposterous it was to downvote it when the parent, which contains nothing but ra-ra-team ideology, was sitting at +6. But then I noticed the charming addendum you put at the end. Come on Andrew, please don't do that. Not only does it violate the rules and spirit of the site, it undermines everything you wrote. In fact it totally spoils it (and changes the subject into a big distraction). Edit: PG said he didn't want to let HN go down without a fight. It's our reponsibility to fight for it too. You've been around here for a long time and made many valuable contributions (definitely including this one, if that noxious bit were excised; there are so few comments on Venezuela that aren't 100% determined by ideological agenda).
    - davidw 17y ago
      Part of that fight should be flagging articles like this that are basically about politics. Look at the discussion it has generated:-/
      - gruseom 17y ago
        You pick a bad example. Andrew's comment was unusually thoughtful until the end bit, it was the end bit which derailed the thread, and the end bit has nothing to do with politics.
        17y ago
- berntb 17y ago
  IMHO, you are over analyzing. Other countries are doing similar things right now (Iran, Russia, etc). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse When the oil runs out, the clow.. politicians will stop making trouble with foreign countries so they have external enemies [edit: which makes all opposition close to treason; most of the troublesome countries are oil countries today]. That is because the politicians will need to make the internal economy run well, so there is anything worth stealing for them. (Just hope they won't think they are too unpopular to keep earning and take off the velvet gloves, North Korean style.)

lionhearted 17y ago

Chavez is the Kim Jong Il of the Western Hemisphere. Military dictator who runs his country into the ground while talking big, waving his arms around, and thinking he's relevant. It's just staggering that despite all that oil they've got, they've managed to squander most of the proceeds via corruption and mismanagement.

ErrantX 17y ago
I have a really bad anecdote about Venezuelan. We had a guy from Venezuela on our Uni course. Once at a party one of the girls on our course with communist leanings (an American, as it happens) says to him "don't you think it's so great what's going on in your country at the moment?" The look on his face was awful (to this day I dont think she understands quite why he was upset)
- andrewcooke 17y ago
  The trouble is that we / you don't have enough context / social knowledge to extrapolate from this. If the guy is in the USA then it's likely he comes from a fairly wealthy background. And that is absolutely not going to support Chavez. S American politics cover a much wider range than American / Western politics, where you are basically choosing between Pepsi and Coke. There really are Maoists and Fascists and everything inbetween.... And also, American leftist supporters of Chavez are incredibly naive, in my experience. So this is just the kind of cultural disaster you could predict - it doesn't really tell us anything new. I am not criticising you - just trying to explain the general problem with understanding what is happening in Venezuela. It's very had to get a good grip on. So much news is extremely polarized.
  - ErrantX 17y ago
    > So this is just the kind of cultural disaster you could predict - it doesn't really tell us anything new. Oh absolutely (you've pretty much described the situation spot on). It was just a related anecdote :) (incidentally he was fairly poor in Venezuela but had distant family in the UK who managed to pay for him to make it over to university here. The girl was generally extremely naive: but in her eyes was wordly, experienced and a bit radical. You can imagine who was more interesting to hang with - Jose is one of the people that kicked off my fascination with South America)

Kilimanjaro 17y ago

One trillion dollars over ten years, just in oil sales, have been stolen by unscrupulous thugs who control the three branches of government and do whatever they please with total impunity. It is such a shame, being the latin saudis, and having brought the country to such a deplorable state. They had a chance and they blew it, now all they're doing is robbing as much as they can while assuring themselves in power forever in order to avoid being judged by international courts for all the crimes they have committed in all these years. More than 100,000 deaths at the hands of government-sponsored killers, more than the afghan and iraq wars together. The perfect definition of Kleptocracy.

DanielBMarkham 17y ago

I'm not going to argue the political theory of this, although I have a lot to say. Instead I'll just say that I continue to feel sorry for my brother human beings in Venezuela. They deserve better than this.

plesn 17y ago

I think this news has it's place on HN, just as well as other news on ACTA, net-neutrality, etc.. But some comments are really inappropriate to put so much political polarity on it. Venezuela is a country relatively "rebel" on US domination: that doesn't make it a devil, but that doesn't make it a angel either: comments on Chavez being a "dictator" seem inappropriate in this thread (what about a previous US president who cheated with voting machines then ?). Essentially, beware of not distorting the perception of things by highlighting many more such facts when they happen in Venezuela than when they happen e.g. in France or Italy promoted by major media companies and securitarian policies. Overall, think about Chomsky...

bh23ha 17y ago

Just like our OUR politicians! Isn't that nice!