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> The database still has to exist on Apple's servers. It doesn't, which is part of the reason Apple wants to do this. You can still do differential privacy wit

> The database still has to exist on Apple's servers. It doesn't, which is part of the reason Apple wants to do this. You can still do differential privacy without collecting all the data, you just get less accurate results. See page 232 in [1], re "The Local Model". [1]: http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~aaroth/Papers/privacybook.pdf http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~aaroth/Papers/privacybook.pdf Edit: the article even says this down when it talks about RAPPOR.

conradev 10y ago
Even though the technique doesn't require collecting all of the data, Apple still does collect a huge well of data. They store all iCloud sync material (backups, photos, contacts, calendars, mail, documents, etc.) without end to end encryption, and have all of the iMessage metadata.
- Twisell 10y ago
  This is so wrong. The only thing that isn't user-encrypted so far is the iPhone backup on their server (Of course it is encrypted but Apple have the key to decrypt it as needed). The official explanation so far is that if the user forgot the password a user-encrypted backup would just become some useless junk. This is (officially) the sole remaining non user-encrypted personal data on apple server that authority can reclaim using a warrant. However after San Bernardino FBI mess, Apple start considering to also encrypt iCloud backup. So if you think you are right, proofs please...
  - singularity2001 10y ago
    The burden of proof should be on Apple's site. Given their secrecy all you can do is pray or switch to open source.
    - Twisell 10y ago
      Alternatively you can also RTFM before complaining about secrecy... https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf Of course that will never be as audit friendly as an Open-Source code. But don't call it a secret, while you actually just didn't search for the information...
  - corv 10y ago
    Are you saying Notes, Safari Bookmarks, Photos, etc are encrypted on iCloud? How come they are accessible from iCloud.com? Decrypted by the browser on the fly?
    - Twisell 10y ago
      It seems so: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 However I reckon that technically Apple could access data or give data stored on iCloud to NSA/FBI because they actually still hold the keys for that part too (not only backup as I thought). Only the password/creditcard Keychain is now claimed to be fully user-encrypted and can't be recovered by any mean by apple. For anything else than a warrant, they'll "just" have to breach every engagement they made in their contract which would, as far as I know constitute a pretty solid legal case that could only lead a public walk of shame that could compromise the whole company's future. If you don't trust them, don't use their cloud, I totally respect that. In the end it always appeal to some degree of trust, even GitHub could be spying on paid private repositories under the hood if they really wanted to. But for what gain?
      - HappyTypist 10y ago
        CISPA grants civil immunity for sharing information with the government.
      - arviewer 10y ago
        > For anything else than a warrant, they'll "just" have to breach every engagement they made in their contract which would, as far as I know constitute a pretty solid legal case that could only lead a public walk of shame that could compromise the whole company's future. This is something I doubt. It would be rather easy to change the software and make it sync passwords, even on an individual basis. If this would come out, it would mean a big marketing problem, and could result in sales losses like 10-20%. I said "could", but to be honest I think 2-3% is more realistic. Most people don't care. They want their data to be safe in case of theft, and have a backup in case of loss. Here on HN it's a big thing, but most users don't know, don't care.
      - 10y ago
  - Natanael_L 10y ago
    What's wrong? AFAIK the only thing fully end-to-end encrypted is the keychain. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 Take note of what the wording leaves out. Apple holds the decryption keys for just about everything. > iCloud Keychain encryption keys are created on your devices, and Apple can't access those keys. Only encrypted keychain data passes through Apple's servers, and Apple can't access any of the key material that could be used to decrypt that data This wording is used for nothing else than the keychain. Fully consistent with the behavior where disconnecting all your devices from your account, to then do a password reset and logging in on a new one device will make all your data available to you again in plaintext format. Including iCloud backups of iMessage chats.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - drdaeman 10y ago
    It's not only encryption, what's important, but proper key management. Just saying.
- denzil_correa 10y ago
  > Apple still does collect a huge well of data. I don't think Apple has ever claimed it does not collect data.
bo1024 10y ago
Hi Frank and thanks for responding; you're right of course. If Apple really did implement some sort of randomized response (or more sophisticated variant), I think that would a real breakthrough for user privacy since they'd be giving up control of the data.
- tjl 10y ago
  According to the State of the Union (where they explain how they're doing differential privacy) there is an overall database, but only in aggregate. It's specifically designed so you don't know the individual answer from each person.

conradev 10y ago

Even though the technique doesn't require collecting all of the data, Apple still does collect a huge well of data. They store all iCloud sync material (backups, photos, contacts, calendars, mail, documents, etc.) without end to end encryption, and have all of the iMessage metadata.

Twisell 10y ago
This is so wrong. The only thing that isn't user-encrypted so far is the iPhone backup on their server (Of course it is encrypted but Apple have the key to decrypt it as needed). The official explanation so far is that if the user forgot the password a user-encrypted backup would just become some useless junk. This is (officially) the sole remaining non user-encrypted personal data on apple server that authority can reclaim using a warrant. However after San Bernardino FBI mess, Apple start considering to also encrypt iCloud backup. So if you think you are right, proofs please...
- singularity2001 10y ago
  The burden of proof should be on Apple's site. Given their secrecy all you can do is pray or switch to open source.
  - Twisell 10y ago
    Alternatively you can also RTFM before complaining about secrecy... https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf Of course that will never be as audit friendly as an Open-Source code. But don't call it a secret, while you actually just didn't search for the information...
- corv 10y ago
  Are you saying Notes, Safari Bookmarks, Photos, etc are encrypted on iCloud? How come they are accessible from iCloud.com? Decrypted by the browser on the fly?
  - Twisell 10y ago
    It seems so: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 However I reckon that technically Apple could access data or give data stored on iCloud to NSA/FBI because they actually still hold the keys for that part too (not only backup as I thought). Only the password/creditcard Keychain is now claimed to be fully user-encrypted and can't be recovered by any mean by apple. For anything else than a warrant, they'll "just" have to breach every engagement they made in their contract which would, as far as I know constitute a pretty solid legal case that could only lead a public walk of shame that could compromise the whole company's future. If you don't trust them, don't use their cloud, I totally respect that. In the end it always appeal to some degree of trust, even GitHub could be spying on paid private repositories under the hood if they really wanted to. But for what gain?
    - HappyTypist 10y ago
      CISPA grants civil immunity for sharing information with the government.
    - arviewer 10y ago
      > For anything else than a warrant, they'll "just" have to breach every engagement they made in their contract which would, as far as I know constitute a pretty solid legal case that could only lead a public walk of shame that could compromise the whole company's future. This is something I doubt. It would be rather easy to change the software and make it sync passwords, even on an individual basis. If this would come out, it would mean a big marketing problem, and could result in sales losses like 10-20%. I said "could", but to be honest I think 2-3% is more realistic. Most people don't care. They want their data to be safe in case of theft, and have a backup in case of loss. Here on HN it's a big thing, but most users don't know, don't care.
    - 10y ago
- Natanael_L 10y ago
  What's wrong? AFAIK the only thing fully end-to-end encrypted is the keychain. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 Take note of what the wording leaves out. Apple holds the decryption keys for just about everything. > iCloud Keychain encryption keys are created on your devices, and Apple can't access those keys. Only encrypted keychain data passes through Apple's servers, and Apple can't access any of the key material that could be used to decrypt that data This wording is used for nothing else than the keychain. Fully consistent with the behavior where disconnecting all your devices from your account, to then do a password reset and logging in on a new one device will make all your data available to you again in plaintext format. Including iCloud backups of iMessage chats.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- drdaeman 10y ago
  It's not only encryption, what's important, but proper key management. Just saying.
denzil_correa 10y ago
> Apple still does collect a huge well of data. I don't think Apple has ever claimed it does not collect data.

bo1024 10y ago

Hi Frank and thanks for responding; you're right of course. If Apple really did implement some sort of randomized response (or more sophisticated variant), I think that would a real breakthrough for user privacy since they'd be giving up control of the data.

tjl 10y ago
According to the State of the Union (where they explain how they're doing differential privacy) there is an overall database, but only in aggregate. It's specifically designed so you don't know the individual answer from each person.