6 ms·

Intel's "Tick Tock" Model for Innovation

21 points by skmurphy 17y ago

kristianp 17y ago
I wonder why AMD doesn't use the 'tick-tock' model? It seems to work very well for Intel.
- reitzensteinm 17y ago
  They kind of do, eg, 65nm was introduced with Athlon X2 before they came out with Phenom, then the Phenom was shrunk to 45nm, etc. I've always seen tick tock as purely a marketing thing, although the 1 year goals may drive engineering somewhat. Interestingly, Intel is considering doing tick tock tock for 32nm.
  - hga 17y ago
    Hmmm, I've never seen it as purely marketing, it seems to be very engineering oriented: Tick: Take an existing, known working and understood design and shrink it for the new process, using that to work out the kinks in the latter. Tock: Now that the new process is well understood, get a new design to work on it. Intel is probably in a better position to do this due to their very strong emphasis on manufacturing and their ability to solidly plan their spending on new fab lines and processes.
    - reitzensteinm 17y ago
      I meant the whole 'tick tock' branding, so to speak - it seems to be marketing giving a name to something which engineering has been doing for sensible reasons for quite some time.
      - hga 17y ago
        I'm sorry, but I got the impression from your saying "although the 1 year goals may drive engineering somewhat" that the marketing was driving the engineering and not the reverse. I think that if you're doing something smart, something that shows how ... solid? reliable? your company is, something that's easily understood by most with an engineering background, and something your competitor can't do, why not make some hay from it?
        reitzensteinm 17y ago
        Ah, sorry, I meant that the only real change seemed to be that they drew a line in the sand and said we'll do a tick or a tock each year. But even then, it hasn't exactly happened that way (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Tick-Tock http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Tick-Tock), and they must have had goals like that internally anyway. I don't blame them for getting some marketing mileage out of it - just that I don't really see it as a very important change in terms of engineering. Although I'm just a casual observer of the industry so I may well be wrong about that.
        hga 17y ago
        Very interesting. Clearly, it takes them more time to do a tick than a tock, and that makes sense, the big unknown unknowns are in moving to a new process. E.g. look at the reported fun with TMSC's 40nm process (iffy vias and excessive variation in transistor construction), with ATI negotiating the mess in two steps and nVidia failing to. Once you've done the tick, a new microarchitecture should be relatively easy, especially since you can simulate it ahead of time and towards the end do that in the light of what you've learn about the new process.
10ren 17y ago
Why those nm numbers? Hmmm... surface density (nm squared) roughly doubles every two years. Slower than Moore's Law (double every 18 months).
- enum 17y ago
  I believe it's feature size: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photolithography http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photolithography
- hga 17y ago
  So I thought, but according to Wikipedia Moore wasn't that precise in his prediction. Initially in 1965 every year and later every two years. Without a citation they say he insists he never said 18 months. Also it's a bit more complicated that just a doubling; again from Wikipedia, the original formulation was "about the density of transistors at which the cost per transistor is the lowest." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore%27s_law#Other_formulations_and_similar_laws http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore%27s_law#Other_formulation...) Intel is of course not quite playing that game, with speed and power being somewhat more important than cost.
fragmede 17y ago
Given the number of people Intel employs, my guess is that Intel looks far enough ahead and teams have 2 year external deadlines. They've just staggered those deadlines so the public sees either a 'tick' or a 'tock' in a year.
mnemonicsloth 17y ago
This is BS in terms of engineering, but it says a lot about the problem Intel has to solve to stay in business. According to Hennessy & Patterson, 90% of performance gains come from better architecture. That's the tock. The other 10% came from clock speed [1], which was a side effect of better fab, the tick. But you mostly want better fab to get more transistors so you can build a better architecture. So here's Intel's problem. They sink a huge amount of money (costs also follow Moore's Law) to upgrade their fabs before they release a new chip. Then they have nothing new to sell for a year or more while they fit it to the fab. In the nineties they smoothed out demand by selling up-clocked versions of old chips, training consumers to think that more MHz = more faster. That's less effective now that clock speeds have stabilized, so they've been pitching lower power consumption instead. It's not really the same, because "faster CPU" in the 1990s really meant "it can run new software." It will be interesting to see how this model will fare in the cloud era. If most CPUs live in data centers, most purchasers will choose based on power consumption and pay less attention to architecture. [1] Until clock speed stopped changing. Clock speeds may even drop for a while to make parallel engineering easier. cf. http://www.amazon.com/Computer-Architecture-Quantitative-Approach-3rd/dp/1558605967 http://www.amazon.com/Computer-Architecture-Quantitative-App...
- newfolder09 17y ago
  As a general rule of thumb Performance for a given program for any CPU is : frequency times Instructions completed/cycle times number of instructions . The number of instructions is sort of fixed based on your ISA (ie. whether the machine is CISC like the x86 or RISC-like like the MIPS/ARM). What happened in the Pentium4 era, was that the focus was almost completely on the frequency part of the equation rather than the Instructions completed per cycle. Intel's focus on new fabs is not just for a higher clock speed- that's a useful side benefit. The real reason is significantly lower cost/die. The same wafer can now produce many more cpu dies (that are slightly faster), increasing their profit/unit. With regard to data centers, we are already seeing a move to power efficient architectures (with the Core family of cpus) versus pure performance. However, especially in the data center model, performance is still a critical metric that probably is not going away any time soon.
AngryParsley 17y ago
Extrapolating feature size reductions every two years: 2010: 32nm, 2012: 22nm, 2014: 16nm, 2016: 11nm, 2018: Nanoelectronics/magic Eight years away from the end of CMOS? That's mind-boggling, especially since the ITRS roadmap puts 11nm feature size out in 2022.
- mnemonicsloth 17y ago
  Wait until you see what comes after. Everyone thinks DNA is just genetic material, but researchers can already build rigid 3D structures with it, or weave it into flat sheets and then address the individual nucleotides like pixels. The computers we use in 2025 will probably be self-assembled and might not be electronic, but they'll keep getting faster. http://metamodern.com/2009/05/22/a-third-revolution-in-dna-nanotechnology/ http://metamodern.com/2009/05/22/a-third-revolution-in-dna-n...

21 points by skmurphy 17y ago

kristianp 17y ago

I wonder why AMD doesn't use the 'tick-tock' model? It seems to work very well for Intel.

reitzensteinm 17y ago
They kind of do, eg, 65nm was introduced with Athlon X2 before they came out with Phenom, then the Phenom was shrunk to 45nm, etc. I've always seen tick tock as purely a marketing thing, although the 1 year goals may drive engineering somewhat. Interestingly, Intel is considering doing tick tock tock for 32nm.
- hga 17y ago
  Hmmm, I've never seen it as purely marketing, it seems to be very engineering oriented: Tick: Take an existing, known working and understood design and shrink it for the new process, using that to work out the kinks in the latter. Tock: Now that the new process is well understood, get a new design to work on it. Intel is probably in a better position to do this due to their very strong emphasis on manufacturing and their ability to solidly plan their spending on new fab lines and processes.
  - reitzensteinm 17y ago
    I meant the whole 'tick tock' branding, so to speak - it seems to be marketing giving a name to something which engineering has been doing for sensible reasons for quite some time.
    - hga 17y ago
      I'm sorry, but I got the impression from your saying "although the 1 year goals may drive engineering somewhat" that the marketing was driving the engineering and not the reverse. I think that if you're doing something smart, something that shows how ... solid? reliable? your company is, something that's easily understood by most with an engineering background, and something your competitor can't do, why not make some hay from it?
      - reitzensteinm 17y ago
        Ah, sorry, I meant that the only real change seemed to be that they drew a line in the sand and said we'll do a tick or a tock each year. But even then, it hasn't exactly happened that way (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Tick-Tock http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Tick-Tock), and they must have had goals like that internally anyway. I don't blame them for getting some marketing mileage out of it - just that I don't really see it as a very important change in terms of engineering. Although I'm just a casual observer of the industry so I may well be wrong about that.
        hga 17y ago
        Very interesting. Clearly, it takes them more time to do a tick than a tock, and that makes sense, the big unknown unknowns are in moving to a new process. E.g. look at the reported fun with TMSC's 40nm process (iffy vias and excessive variation in transistor construction), with ATI negotiating the mess in two steps and nVidia failing to. Once you've done the tick, a new microarchitecture should be relatively easy, especially since you can simulate it ahead of time and towards the end do that in the light of what you've learn about the new process.

10ren 17y ago

Why those nm numbers? Hmmm... surface density (nm squared) roughly doubles every two years. Slower than Moore's Law (double every 18 months).

enum 17y ago
I believe it's feature size: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photolithography http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photolithography
hga 17y ago
So I thought, but according to Wikipedia Moore wasn't that precise in his prediction. Initially in 1965 every year and later every two years. Without a citation they say he insists he never said 18 months. Also it's a bit more complicated that just a doubling; again from Wikipedia, the original formulation was "about the density of transistors at which the cost per transistor is the lowest." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore%27s_law#Other_formulations_and_similar_laws http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore%27s_law#Other_formulation...) Intel is of course not quite playing that game, with speed and power being somewhat more important than cost.

fragmede 17y ago

Given the number of people Intel employs, my guess is that Intel looks far enough ahead and teams have 2 year external deadlines. They've just staggered those deadlines so the public sees either a 'tick' or a 'tock' in a year.

mnemonicsloth 17y ago

This is BS in terms of engineering, but it says a lot about the problem Intel has to solve to stay in business. According to Hennessy & Patterson, 90% of performance gains come from better architecture. That's the tock. The other 10% came from clock speed [1], which was a side effect of better fab, the tick. But you mostly want better fab to get more transistors so you can build a better architecture. So here's Intel's problem. They sink a huge amount of money (costs also follow Moore's Law) to upgrade their fabs before they release a new chip. Then they have nothing new to sell for a year or more while they fit it to the fab. In the nineties they smoothed out demand by selling up-clocked versions of old chips, training consumers to think that more MHz = more faster. That's less effective now that clock speeds have stabilized, so they've been pitching lower power consumption instead. It's not really the same, because "faster CPU" in the 1990s really meant "it can run new software." It will be interesting to see how this model will fare in the cloud era. If most CPUs live in data centers, most purchasers will choose based on power consumption and pay less attention to architecture. [1] Until clock speed stopped changing. Clock speeds may even drop for a while to make parallel engineering easier. cf. http://www.amazon.com/Computer-Architecture-Quantitative-Approach-3rd/dp/1558605967 http://www.amazon.com/Computer-Architecture-Quantitative-App...

newfolder09 17y ago
As a general rule of thumb Performance for a given program for any CPU is : frequency times Instructions completed/cycle times number of instructions . The number of instructions is sort of fixed based on your ISA (ie. whether the machine is CISC like the x86 or RISC-like like the MIPS/ARM). What happened in the Pentium4 era, was that the focus was almost completely on the frequency part of the equation rather than the Instructions completed per cycle. Intel's focus on new fabs is not just for a higher clock speed- that's a useful side benefit. The real reason is significantly lower cost/die. The same wafer can now produce many more cpu dies (that are slightly faster), increasing their profit/unit. With regard to data centers, we are already seeing a move to power efficient architectures (with the Core family of cpus) versus pure performance. However, especially in the data center model, performance is still a critical metric that probably is not going away any time soon.

AngryParsley 17y ago

Extrapolating feature size reductions every two years: 2010: 32nm, 2012: 22nm, 2014: 16nm, 2016: 11nm, 2018: Nanoelectronics/magic Eight years away from the end of CMOS? That's mind-boggling, especially since the ITRS roadmap puts 11nm feature size out in 2022.

mnemonicsloth 17y ago
Wait until you see what comes after. Everyone thinks DNA is just genetic material, but researchers can already build rigid 3D structures with it, or weave it into flat sheets and then address the individual nucleotides like pixels. The computers we use in 2025 will probably be self-assembled and might not be electronic, but they'll keep getting faster. http://metamodern.com/2009/05/22/a-third-revolution-in-dna-nanotechnology/ http://metamodern.com/2009/05/22/a-third-revolution-in-dna-n...