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Wow. This isn't a 9% layoff. It's 9% plus an offer for everyone else to step out. It will be interesting to see what the final # is. 20%? 30%? I'm not a f

Wow. This isn't a 9% layoff. It's 9% plus an offer for everyone else to step out. It will be interesting to see what the final # is. 20%? 30%? I'm not a fan of testosterone talk like everyone has to be "All In" when a company is more mature. The only way this helps is if engagement is a real problem, and you need to sort out who is on the bus and who is off of it. I will say that 3 months of severance for folks who involuntarily leave, and 2 months for folks who voluntarily leave is very generous for a company that is in trouble. It's very close to industry leaders like Netflix and Zappos, and much more than they would need to do.

phonon 10y ago
>I will say that 3 months of severance for folks who involuntarily leave, and 2 months for folks who voluntarily leave is very generous for a company that is in trouble. It's very close to industry leaders like Netflix and Zappos, and much more than they would need to do. Not really. This type of layoff (more than 50 people, and an entire location) would seem to qualify under the WARN Act (60 day minimum notice.) So two months full pay in lieu of notice would be the minimum. As for the voluntary leaving...well, why would anyone leave voluntarily unless there was a sweetener?
- mathattack 10y ago
  Interesting on the WARN act. I didn't think it applied in Arizona. Or is because Zenefits is a CA based company? It's interesting to me in that in most companies, if you're not happy, they counsel you out (or start documenting performance) and then you get nothing. If this were a deliberate "We need to get to 20% reduction" then they would have just picked another 11% to go.
  - TheCoelacanth 10y ago
    The WARN act applies everywhere in the US. Some states (including CA) have stricter versions.
    - mathattack 10y ago
      Thanks for clarifying. Is this new? I know that I've seen less notice during dot com bust 1.0, and in mid 2000s Wall Street.
      - dragonwriter 10y ago
        WARN Act is from 1988. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_Adjustment_and_Retraining_Notification_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_Adjustment_and_Retraini...
      - TheCoelacanth 10y ago
        It doesn't apply to all layoffs, only those where the companies have 100+ employees and layoff 50+ employees. There are also some exceptions in the case of bankruptcy.
        mathattack 10y ago
        I think it would be very hard to enforce in bankruptcy. I recall running into this at another company too. Just surprised that it's not universal. I think in Wall Street they do a lot of wink-wink nod-nod that it's performance based when they lay off 5-10% of the workforce right before bonuses get paid.
  - patmcguire 10y ago
    IANAL but there are exceptions for "Faltering company", "Unforeseeable business circumstances" and "Natural disaster" A skilled lawyer might be able to make the case that being a total garbage fire of a company falls under one of the first two.
the_watcher 10y ago
Did I miss any clarification about The Offer being given to everyone being laid off? I'm assuming so. Overall, pretty generous of them, and good for Zenefits for trying their best to weather the mistakes that were made without punishing employees more than they have to.
- mathattack 10y ago
  My interpretation is 9% got laid off with 3 months severance, and everyone else in the company got "The Offer" which is 2 months severance. My experience has been that severance generally gets less generous over time.
Tloewald 10y ago
Right -- it seemed fine until "The Offer" showed up. You know who takes offers like that? The people who can find new jobs really easily. It's a recipe for losing good people.
- mathattack 10y ago
  Yes. And anyone who was WIP interviewing.
- ams6110 10y ago
  It reads to me like the opening steps to a classic "Death March." They even talk about "busting ass" and "staying late." BTDT. I'd be out by the end of the day if I got that email.
- zupa-hu 10y ago
  Maybe you are statistically right, maybe I'm just the outliar, but I'd actually love getting this letter. I'd rather work late at a company fighting for its life, with a team that holds together, in a place where it actually matters if you get something done, than at a stable company that has no pressure and has tons of time getting things done. Get out of my way and let me get shit done. I'd definitely stay, let's rock! :D (I have zero connections to Zenefits.)
  - HillRat 10y ago
    To be less generous than you, I see it as an invitation to death-march deadlines, desperate executive-level demands for unreasonable results, a likely spiral into oblivion that no operational improvements can stop, and essentially no meaningful rewards if you succeed. Last-minute large-scale payroll cuts generally means a company is in week-to-week mode. Voluntary RIF packages aren't likely to get better over time, so loyalty to the cause is really the only reason to stay as long as you're market-employable. And, no, no connections to Zenefits either, but it's not the first time I've seen this one play out. (Working with one right now, actually!)
  - fishtoaster 10y ago
    I can definitely understand that sentiment. That's the main reason I like working at super-early-stage startups. Zenefits, though, sounds like you'd have all the rough parts of that experience (eg long hours) but little of the upside. And, because of both their size and their recent trouble with regulation, there's probably very little of the "get out of my way".

phonon 10y ago

>I will say that 3 months of severance for folks who involuntarily leave, and 2 months for folks who voluntarily leave is very generous for a company that is in trouble. It's very close to industry leaders like Netflix and Zappos, and much more than they would need to do. Not really. This type of layoff (more than 50 people, and an entire location) would seem to qualify under the WARN Act (60 day minimum notice.) So two months full pay in lieu of notice would be the minimum. As for the voluntary leaving...well, why would anyone leave voluntarily unless there was a sweetener?

mathattack 10y ago
Interesting on the WARN act. I didn't think it applied in Arizona. Or is because Zenefits is a CA based company? It's interesting to me in that in most companies, if you're not happy, they counsel you out (or start documenting performance) and then you get nothing. If this were a deliberate "We need to get to 20% reduction" then they would have just picked another 11% to go.
- TheCoelacanth 10y ago
  The WARN act applies everywhere in the US. Some states (including CA) have stricter versions.
  - mathattack 10y ago
    Thanks for clarifying. Is this new? I know that I've seen less notice during dot com bust 1.0, and in mid 2000s Wall Street.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      WARN Act is from 1988. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_Adjustment_and_Retraining_Notification_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_Adjustment_and_Retraini...
    - TheCoelacanth 10y ago
      It doesn't apply to all layoffs, only those where the companies have 100+ employees and layoff 50+ employees. There are also some exceptions in the case of bankruptcy.
      - mathattack 10y ago
        I think it would be very hard to enforce in bankruptcy. I recall running into this at another company too. Just surprised that it's not universal. I think in Wall Street they do a lot of wink-wink nod-nod that it's performance based when they lay off 5-10% of the workforce right before bonuses get paid.
- patmcguire 10y ago
  IANAL but there are exceptions for "Faltering company", "Unforeseeable business circumstances" and "Natural disaster" A skilled lawyer might be able to make the case that being a total garbage fire of a company falls under one of the first two.

the_watcher 10y ago

Did I miss any clarification about The Offer being given to everyone being laid off? I'm assuming so. Overall, pretty generous of them, and good for Zenefits for trying their best to weather the mistakes that were made without punishing employees more than they have to.

mathattack 10y ago
My interpretation is 9% got laid off with 3 months severance, and everyone else in the company got "The Offer" which is 2 months severance. My experience has been that severance generally gets less generous over time.

Tloewald 10y ago

Right -- it seemed fine until "The Offer" showed up. You know who takes offers like that? The people who can find new jobs really easily. It's a recipe for losing good people.

mathattack 10y ago
Yes. And anyone who was WIP interviewing.
ams6110 10y ago
It reads to me like the opening steps to a classic "Death March." They even talk about "busting ass" and "staying late." BTDT. I'd be out by the end of the day if I got that email.
zupa-hu 10y ago
Maybe you are statistically right, maybe I'm just the outliar, but I'd actually love getting this letter. I'd rather work late at a company fighting for its life, with a team that holds together, in a place where it actually matters if you get something done, than at a stable company that has no pressure and has tons of time getting things done. Get out of my way and let me get shit done. I'd definitely stay, let's rock! :D (I have zero connections to Zenefits.)
- HillRat 10y ago
  To be less generous than you, I see it as an invitation to death-march deadlines, desperate executive-level demands for unreasonable results, a likely spiral into oblivion that no operational improvements can stop, and essentially no meaningful rewards if you succeed. Last-minute large-scale payroll cuts generally means a company is in week-to-week mode. Voluntary RIF packages aren't likely to get better over time, so loyalty to the cause is really the only reason to stay as long as you're market-employable. And, no, no connections to Zenefits either, but it's not the first time I've seen this one play out. (Working with one right now, actually!)
- fishtoaster 10y ago
  I can definitely understand that sentiment. That's the main reason I like working at super-early-stage startups. Zenefits, though, sounds like you'd have all the rough parts of that experience (eg long hours) but little of the upside. And, because of both their size and their recent trouble with regulation, there's probably very little of the "get out of my way".