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1. People in Eastern Europe can be easily quantified by per capita income. And just because a dollar there goes further, it doesn't mean they have more dollars

1. People in Eastern Europe can be easily quantified by per capita income. And just because a dollar there goes further, it doesn't mean they have more dollars or can afford the things Americans can. 2. Estonia and the Ukraine are much more similar to each other than any Eastern bloc country is to the US. And I wouldn't lump Canada and Mexico together for discussion, but I would surely lump Mexico in with Central/South America and talk about them. 3. In America, you can agree to a well-defined contract and enforce it in court. Sometimes a buyer shouldn't pay for work completed. If you are dealing with a foreign contractor, neither party has legal protections, the buyer has a lot of leverage and more money, and as such should treat the contractor extremely fairly.

jwr 17y ago
As to (1): I looked at http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=income+per+capita+in+eastern+europe http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=income+per+capita+in+ea... and noted that the highest income per capita is 12.64 times larger than the lowest. I'm not sure how that "quantifies" anything. And before you say that the highest number, $21,000 is meaningful in anyway, let me just add that I've paid programmers $65,000 a year (in Poland). Please, people, stop generalizing. "Eastern Europe" is just as silly as EMEA, "SouthEast Asia" or "North America".
jacquesm 17y ago
I don't think I can agree with that. The difference between Northern Michigan and Southern California or New York is substantially larger than the difference between Poland and Romania or Ukraine. The biggest difference between those countries and the US can be summed up in one word: market. They simply have a very limited local market for these skills, but plenty of people there have some skills and are prepared to work very hard to get more. Their cost of living can - at least in the former eastblock - easily approach the cost of living in the US. Plenty of ex eastblock countries are now using the Euro, either for their day-to-day transactions or already for their debt, even though they still have a national currency (because the Euro is more stable, banks like to borrow money in Euros to individuals that get paid in a local currency, very risky but many banks got burned badly during hyperinflation at the end of the 80's). We agree on the contract bit, I think. The contract situation is something that is not so important when using systems like rent-a-coder, you're not going to use it to write the gut of an ATM or a mission critical piece of software for a financial institution or a health care provider. Rent-a-coder is primarily intended for relatively short running simple projects that you want to get done on a minimal budget. The whole idea of relying on such cheap labour for something that you put a very high value on (high enough to go to court over) is counter to the intended purpose of the service.
- pvg 17y ago
  The difference between Northern Michigan and Southern California or New York is substantially larger than the difference between Poland and Romania or Ukraine. We can go into an endless rabbit hole about which difference is bigger, on which parameters. Northern Michigan and Southern California operate on a substantially similar and similarly enforced set of laws. This is not the case for Poland, Romania or Ukraine.
viraptor 17y ago
Re. 1: it's not something people who never move from the country really experience. If I spend 10% of my salary on food and you do the same, who cares how much we earn? Of course it matters in some global sense and affects the prices of quality goods like electronics which are imported - but in a day-to-day life, I don't think it really matters. Re. 2: Good luck telling people in Estonia and Ukraine that they're similar in any way ;) "Eastern block" was not a one big lump of states by people's choice and did not break without a reason. Re. 3: What really bothers me in the previous post is something completely different than you say here. Of course - you can double check to be sure you're right before blaming foreign contractor for the quality of work - because of the lack of legal protection. But if your requirements are not fulfilled - why does it matter if the work was done in US or somewhere else? Your friend wasn't happy with the result. When you say you shouldn't be "pressuring some overseas consultant" in a post about EE countries and income, it seems to me a bit condescending...

jwr 17y ago

As to (1): I looked at http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=income+per+capita+in+eastern+europe http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=income+per+capita+in+ea... and noted that the highest income per capita is 12.64 times larger than the lowest. I'm not sure how that "quantifies" anything. And before you say that the highest number, $21,000 is meaningful in anyway, let me just add that I've paid programmers $65,000 a year (in Poland). Please, people, stop generalizing. "Eastern Europe" is just as silly as EMEA, "SouthEast Asia" or "North America".

jacquesm 17y ago

I don't think I can agree with that. The difference between Northern Michigan and Southern California or New York is substantially larger than the difference between Poland and Romania or Ukraine. The biggest difference between those countries and the US can be summed up in one word: market. They simply have a very limited local market for these skills, but plenty of people there have some skills and are prepared to work very hard to get more. Their cost of living can - at least in the former eastblock - easily approach the cost of living in the US. Plenty of ex eastblock countries are now using the Euro, either for their day-to-day transactions or already for their debt, even though they still have a national currency (because the Euro is more stable, banks like to borrow money in Euros to individuals that get paid in a local currency, very risky but many banks got burned badly during hyperinflation at the end of the 80's). We agree on the contract bit, I think. The contract situation is something that is not so important when using systems like rent-a-coder, you're not going to use it to write the gut of an ATM or a mission critical piece of software for a financial institution or a health care provider. Rent-a-coder is primarily intended for relatively short running simple projects that you want to get done on a minimal budget. The whole idea of relying on such cheap labour for something that you put a very high value on (high enough to go to court over) is counter to the intended purpose of the service.

pvg 17y ago
The difference between Northern Michigan and Southern California or New York is substantially larger than the difference between Poland and Romania or Ukraine. We can go into an endless rabbit hole about which difference is bigger, on which parameters. Northern Michigan and Southern California operate on a substantially similar and similarly enforced set of laws. This is not the case for Poland, Romania or Ukraine.

viraptor 17y ago

Re. 1: it's not something people who never move from the country really experience. If I spend 10% of my salary on food and you do the same, who cares how much we earn? Of course it matters in some global sense and affects the prices of quality goods like electronics which are imported - but in a day-to-day life, I don't think it really matters. Re. 2: Good luck telling people in Estonia and Ukraine that they're similar in any way ;) "Eastern block" was not a one big lump of states by people's choice and did not break without a reason. Re. 3: What really bothers me in the previous post is something completely different than you say here. Of course - you can double check to be sure you're right before blaming foreign contractor for the quality of work - because of the lack of legal protection. But if your requirements are not fulfilled - why does it matter if the work was done in US or somewhere else? Your friend wasn't happy with the result. When you say you shouldn't be "pressuring some overseas consultant" in a post about EE countries and income, it seems to me a bit condescending...