4 ms·

I definitely feel this pain too, but: They can't upgrade to recent GNU tools (bash is the one most people complain about) because of the GPLv3. And I feel thei

I definitely feel this pain too, but: They can't upgrade to recent GNU tools (bash is the one most people complain about) because of the GPLv3. And I feel their developer manpower is better spent on fixing OS bugs at this point. These issues are better fixed by developers less encumbered by the closed-sourceness of OS X.

jkeler 10y ago
> They can't upgrade to recent GNU tools because of the GPLv3. They can but it is their choice not to use GPLv3 tools.
- 0942v8653 10y ago
  Doesn't SIP cause issues with the TiVoization clause? I guess I'm not an expert on this, but it's possible Apple wants to leave the possibility open of making SIP mandatory.
  - waterphone 10y ago
    An OS with mandatory SIP will be the point I stop upgrading. I'm fine with optional features like this, but the instant it becomes mandatory and can't be bypassed I'm gone.
    - stephenr 10y ago
      Bye.
  - giovannibajo1 10y ago
    The decision of not shipping GPLv3 user space tools predates SIP by several years, far more than I would bet SIP has been in development. I think it's just a legal issue as in lawyers don't want to touch it period
spitfire 10y ago
They can't find or build alternatives? they could have the same impact at the Unix level that they've had on the high-level GUI. It could certainly use it.
- majewsky 10y ago
  But an updated cp(1) that has all the same options as the GNU one has a much lower return-on-investment as 3x emojis (which I chose for this example since it could be around the same amount of work).
dleslie 10y ago
What about the GPLv3 prevents them from using GNU user space tools?
- Sanddancer 10y ago
  The GPLv3 has clauses in it that opens up a new load of legal questions for Apple that they'd rather avoid. I just wish that Apple would move to using less encumbered shell that is actively being developed, like pdksh or zsh.
  - oblio 10y ago
    If Microsoft is willing to ship GNU tools as a officially sanctioned extension to Windows, then Apple definitely has no valid excuse to avoid GPL v3.
    - Sanddancer 10y ago
      Apple and Microsoft have different legal departments. Apple's still has questions over GPLv3, for better or for worse.
      - DannyBee 10y ago
        They really don't. They know exactly what they can and can't do. They don't think it's vague or ambiguous. They just don't see it as worth the energy for them to use it. I can't disagree with that strategy (if no one is really pushing you to do X, why bother), at Google we do the same with android mostly, but for different reasons: We don't use GPLv3 because the OEMs/etc don't want it, and rip it out anyway :) Similarly, i expect in Apple's case, they don't use it in parts they may keep common to ios/macos because then they can't keep them common. In any case, the TL;DR is that there aren't open legal questions or magic things they are waiting to play out. They've made their choice and have been sticking by it.
    - the_mitsuhiko 10y ago
      Microsoft does not ship any GPL code at all on the operating system.

jkeler 10y ago

> They can't upgrade to recent GNU tools because of the GPLv3. They can but it is their choice not to use GPLv3 tools.

0942v8653 10y ago
Doesn't SIP cause issues with the TiVoization clause? I guess I'm not an expert on this, but it's possible Apple wants to leave the possibility open of making SIP mandatory.
- waterphone 10y ago
  An OS with mandatory SIP will be the point I stop upgrading. I'm fine with optional features like this, but the instant it becomes mandatory and can't be bypassed I'm gone.
  - stephenr 10y ago
    Bye.
- giovannibajo1 10y ago
  The decision of not shipping GPLv3 user space tools predates SIP by several years, far more than I would bet SIP has been in development. I think it's just a legal issue as in lawyers don't want to touch it period

spitfire 10y ago

They can't find or build alternatives? they could have the same impact at the Unix level that they've had on the high-level GUI. It could certainly use it.

majewsky 10y ago
But an updated cp(1) that has all the same options as the GNU one has a much lower return-on-investment as 3x emojis (which I chose for this example since it could be around the same amount of work).

dleslie 10y ago

What about the GPLv3 prevents them from using GNU user space tools?

Sanddancer 10y ago
The GPLv3 has clauses in it that opens up a new load of legal questions for Apple that they'd rather avoid. I just wish that Apple would move to using less encumbered shell that is actively being developed, like pdksh or zsh.
- oblio 10y ago
  If Microsoft is willing to ship GNU tools as a officially sanctioned extension to Windows, then Apple definitely has no valid excuse to avoid GPL v3.
  - Sanddancer 10y ago
    Apple and Microsoft have different legal departments. Apple's still has questions over GPLv3, for better or for worse.
    - DannyBee 10y ago
      They really don't. They know exactly what they can and can't do. They don't think it's vague or ambiguous. They just don't see it as worth the energy for them to use it. I can't disagree with that strategy (if no one is really pushing you to do X, why bother), at Google we do the same with android mostly, but for different reasons: We don't use GPLv3 because the OEMs/etc don't want it, and rip it out anyway :) Similarly, i expect in Apple's case, they don't use it in parts they may keep common to ios/macos because then they can't keep them common. In any case, the TL;DR is that there aren't open legal questions or magic things they are waiting to play out. They've made their choice and have been sticking by it.
  - the_mitsuhiko 10y ago
    Microsoft does not ship any GPL code at all on the operating system.