4 ms·

Wars are over ideology.... :(

by baldfat 10y ago

chillingeffect 10y ago
Ideology and resources are an intertwined pair. Ideologies are exploited to gain resources. E.g. Islamic terrorism is a selected and nurtured subset of Islam for negative memes as a side effect of conflict of oil. The large, underlying cultural ideology is "we need lots of transportation."
dragonwriter 10y ago
Wars are more often over resources, with ideology and identity (secular or religious) as a tool for the elites that want the resources to motivate the non-elites that aren't getting the resources one way or another to fight on their behalf.
PeterisP 10y ago
I can't recall even a single war in the last hundred years that was over ideology. Almost all wars used a lot of ideology in the propaganda to motivate the soldiers and workers, but the actual reasons for starting them pretty much always come down to gaining or ensuring control over resources, or realpolitik - incite a conflict that we get some advantage in the global game, so that some strategic oil line doesn't get built, or overthrow their government so that their trade policies are the way we want.
- baldfat 10y ago
  1) ISIS Taliban (Religious Ideology Iraq and Afghanistan) (We haven't gone to war with other Oil Rich Countries and Afghanistan doesn't have oil) 2) Vietnam (Cold War Communism) don't see an oil attachment)) 3) Korea (Cold War Communism) don't see an oil attachment)) 4) I would argue WW2 Japan and Hitler was an ideology more then a grab for oil. Killing of Polish, Homosexuals, Jews and Russians was not for oil 5) WW1 - http://www.historyhome.co.uk/europe/causeww1.htm http://www.historyhome.co.uk/europe/causeww1.htm Too long to comment on this but it was certainly not about oil I find the wars for oil in the conspiracy realm. People will say the American Revolution and Civil War was over commodities but I HIGHLY disagree i.e. French Revolution happened over the same ideology. War fought specifically around oil (Iraq Kuwait) I fail to see other examples. http://www.businessinsider.com/nine-wars-that-were-fought-over-commodities-2012-8?op=1 http://www.businessinsider.com/nine-wars-that-were-fought-ov...
  - tanderson92 10y ago
    To your point (4), I would counter that while WW2 Hitler was certainly ideology, WW2 Japan may indeed have been oil. Remember that the UK & US were squeezing Japan's oil access (90% of oil came from US imports which we blocked) and their only option was to assert themselves militarily and conquer the East Indies for oil. The rest is escalation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_World_War_II#Competition_for_resources_and_markets https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_World_War_II#Competi...
    - WalterBright 10y ago
      > WW2 Hitler was certainly ideology Lebensraum?
      - baldfat 10y ago
        Definition Lebensraum (German pronunciation: [ˈleːbənsˌʁaʊm] ( listen), "living space") refers to conceptions and policies of a form of settler colonialism connected with agrarianism that existed in Germany from the 1890s to the 1940s. One variant of this policy was supported by the Nazi Party and Nazi Germany.
    - baldfat 10y ago
      Prior to the US Embargo was the Invasion of "Manchuria" and China. Heck Japan had been ruling Korea since 1910. > In 1937 Japan invaded Manchuria and China proper. Under the guise of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere, with slogans as "Asia for the Asians!" Japan sought to remove the Western powers' influence in China and replace it with Japanese domination.[24][25] The ongoing conflict in China led to a deepening conflict with the U.S., where public opinion was alarmed by events such as the Nanking Massacre and growing Japanese power. Lengthy talks were held between the U.S. and Japan. When Japan moved into the southern part of French Indochina, President Roosevelt chose to freeze all Japanese assets in the U.S. The intended consequence of this was the halt of oil shipments from the U.S. to Japan, which had supplied 80 percent of Japanese oil imports.
  - Grishnakh 10y ago
- schoen 10y ago
  I've wondered about the idea of a wiki of wars that focuses on discussing what the wars were "about" according to different people. Wikipedia doesn't exactly do this, because they usually focus a lot more on what happened during and after the war than on views of participants or others about reasons and justifications. There is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Causes_of_wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Causes_of_wars and some of those seem fairly thorough, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_War_of_1812 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_War_of_1812 But most wars don't really get this treatment.
  - baldfat 10y ago
    WW1 - http://www.historyhome.co.uk/europe/causeww1.htm http://www.historyhome.co.uk/europe/causeww1.htm

Wars are over ideology.... :(

by baldfat 10y ago

Wars are over ideology.... :(

Ideology and resources are an intertwined pair. Ideologies are exploited to gain resources. E.g. Islamic terrorism is a selected and nurtured subset of Islam for negative memes as a side effect of conflict of oil. The large, underlying cultural ideology is "we need lots of transportation."

dragonwriter 10y ago

Wars are more often over resources, with ideology and identity (secular or religious) as a tool for the elites that want the resources to motivate the non-elites that aren't getting the resources one way or another to fight on their behalf.

PeterisP 10y ago

I can't recall even a single war in the last hundred years that was over ideology. Almost all wars used a lot of ideology in the propaganda to motivate the soldiers and workers, but the actual reasons for starting them pretty much always come down to gaining or ensuring control over resources, or realpolitik - incite a conflict that we get some advantage in the global game, so that some strategic oil line doesn't get built, or overthrow their government so that their trade policies are the way we want.

baldfat 10y ago
1) ISIS Taliban (Religious Ideology Iraq and Afghanistan) (We haven't gone to war with other Oil Rich Countries and Afghanistan doesn't have oil) 2) Vietnam (Cold War Communism) don't see an oil attachment)) 3) Korea (Cold War Communism) don't see an oil attachment)) 4) I would argue WW2 Japan and Hitler was an ideology more then a grab for oil. Killing of Polish, Homosexuals, Jews and Russians was not for oil 5) WW1 - http://www.historyhome.co.uk/europe/causeww1.htm http://www.historyhome.co.uk/europe/causeww1.htm Too long to comment on this but it was certainly not about oil I find the wars for oil in the conspiracy realm. People will say the American Revolution and Civil War was over commodities but I HIGHLY disagree i.e. French Revolution happened over the same ideology. War fought specifically around oil (Iraq Kuwait) I fail to see other examples. http://www.businessinsider.com/nine-wars-that-were-fought-over-commodities-2012-8?op=1 http://www.businessinsider.com/nine-wars-that-were-fought-ov...
- tanderson92 10y ago
  To your point (4), I would counter that while WW2 Hitler was certainly ideology, WW2 Japan may indeed have been oil. Remember that the UK & US were squeezing Japan's oil access (90% of oil came from US imports which we blocked) and their only option was to assert themselves militarily and conquer the East Indies for oil. The rest is escalation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_World_War_II#Competition_for_resources_and_markets https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_World_War_II#Competi...
  - WalterBright 10y ago
    > WW2 Hitler was certainly ideology Lebensraum?
    - baldfat 10y ago
      Definition Lebensraum (German pronunciation: [ˈleːbənsˌʁaʊm] ( listen), "living space") refers to conceptions and policies of a form of settler colonialism connected with agrarianism that existed in Germany from the 1890s to the 1940s. One variant of this policy was supported by the Nazi Party and Nazi Germany.
  - baldfat 10y ago
    Prior to the US Embargo was the Invasion of "Manchuria" and China. Heck Japan had been ruling Korea since 1910. > In 1937 Japan invaded Manchuria and China proper. Under the guise of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere, with slogans as "Asia for the Asians!" Japan sought to remove the Western powers' influence in China and replace it with Japanese domination.[24][25] The ongoing conflict in China led to a deepening conflict with the U.S., where public opinion was alarmed by events such as the Nanking Massacre and growing Japanese power. Lengthy talks were held between the U.S. and Japan. When Japan moved into the southern part of French Indochina, President Roosevelt chose to freeze all Japanese assets in the U.S. The intended consequence of this was the halt of oil shipments from the U.S. to Japan, which had supplied 80 percent of Japanese oil imports.
- Grishnakh 10y ago
schoen 10y ago
I've wondered about the idea of a wiki of wars that focuses on discussing what the wars were "about" according to different people. Wikipedia doesn't exactly do this, because they usually focus a lot more on what happened during and after the war than on views of participants or others about reasons and justifications. There is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Causes_of_wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Causes_of_wars and some of those seem fairly thorough, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_War_of_1812 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_War_of_1812 But most wars don't really get this treatment.
- baldfat 10y ago
  WW1 - http://www.historyhome.co.uk/europe/causeww1.htm http://www.historyhome.co.uk/europe/causeww1.htm