3 ms·

I've read it and I think it's juvenile. If you want to opt out of a society, wonderful. Leave it. Most governments will allow you to leave, and I certainly agr

by cbd1984 10y ago

I've read it and I think it's juvenile. If you want to opt out of a society, wonderful. Leave it. Most governments will allow you to leave, and I certainly agree that those which do not are tyrannical. However, if you try to opt out and refuse to leave, you're a free rider, getting the benefit from the society without agreeing to the rules which helps make it work. It is immoral to benefit from clean air if you refuse to abide by the laws limiting air pollution. It is immoral to benefit from a functional banking system if you refuse to abide by the laws regulating that banking system. Yes, there are a lot of immoral people in the world. However, waving your immorality around like a flag by saying you don't agree to the system you benefit from is a level to which most of the immoral will not stoop. If you are going to do wrong, at least have the decency to admit you're doing wrong, and attempt to change the system in a constructive way, instead of trying to paint free riding as a moral alternative.

colejohnson66 10y ago
You can't renounce your US citizenship for quite a while after you leave. During that time you have to pay US taxes.
- int_19h 10y ago
  Or without paying a fee. Which is currently $2,350. (Ironically, you have to pay more to renounce US citizenship, then you have to pay in all the various filing fees etc when acquiring citizenship through naturalization.)
- cbd1984 10y ago
  As a practical matter, you can evade US taxes if you have no financial contact with the US; the IRS can deem you liable for any amount of taxes and it won't have any effect on you if they're unable to collect them.
  - colejohnson66 10y ago
    But if you have family you left in the US, you're almost certainly gonna have financial contact with them.
pdonis 10y ago
> If you want to opt out of a society, wonderful. The Constitution is not the same as society, and saying that the Constitution has no inherent authority or obligation is not the same as opting out of society. In fact, the unthinking conflation of these two concepts (the Constitution and society) is exactly the sort of thing this essay was intended to argue against.
- hexscrews 10y ago
  I'd argue otherwise. The constitution sets out the defining goal of a society. Call it the rule-set for the society as a whole. If you disagree with the defining rules, that is fine. You can chose any number of governmental models on this planet. But don't expect the rest of us to agree to your rule-set.
  - pdonis 10y ago
    > The constitution sets out the defining goal of a society. I don't see that in the US Constitution. The preamble talks about things like securing certain blessings, but doesn't really say what they actually are; it uses vague terms like "Justice", which mean different things to different people. The US founding document that comes closest to setting out a defining goal, at least in terms of what government is for, is the Declaration of Independence, and even that is vague: what does "pursuit of happiness" really mean?
    - sverige 10y ago
      And "pursuit of happiness" was "pursuit of property" originally.
- cbd1984 10y ago
  It's impossible to have a society without laws, written or unwritten, and the Constitution is the underlying legal document which all laws must be in accordance with. (A society without written laws is anarchistic, or despotic. A society without any laws at all is impossible.)

by cbd1984 10y ago

colejohnson66 10y ago

You can't renounce your US citizenship for quite a while after you leave. During that time you have to pay US taxes.

int_19h 10y ago
Or without paying a fee. Which is currently $2,350. (Ironically, you have to pay more to renounce US citizenship, then you have to pay in all the various filing fees etc when acquiring citizenship through naturalization.)
cbd1984 10y ago
As a practical matter, you can evade US taxes if you have no financial contact with the US; the IRS can deem you liable for any amount of taxes and it won't have any effect on you if they're unable to collect them.
- colejohnson66 10y ago
  But if you have family you left in the US, you're almost certainly gonna have financial contact with them.

pdonis 10y ago

> If you want to opt out of a society, wonderful. The Constitution is not the same as society, and saying that the Constitution has no inherent authority or obligation is not the same as opting out of society. In fact, the unthinking conflation of these two concepts (the Constitution and society) is exactly the sort of thing this essay was intended to argue against.

hexscrews 10y ago
I'd argue otherwise. The constitution sets out the defining goal of a society. Call it the rule-set for the society as a whole. If you disagree with the defining rules, that is fine. You can chose any number of governmental models on this planet. But don't expect the rest of us to agree to your rule-set.
- pdonis 10y ago
  > The constitution sets out the defining goal of a society. I don't see that in the US Constitution. The preamble talks about things like securing certain blessings, but doesn't really say what they actually are; it uses vague terms like "Justice", which mean different things to different people. The US founding document that comes closest to setting out a defining goal, at least in terms of what government is for, is the Declaration of Independence, and even that is vague: what does "pursuit of happiness" really mean?
  - sverige 10y ago
    And "pursuit of happiness" was "pursuit of property" originally.
cbd1984 10y ago
It's impossible to have a society without laws, written or unwritten, and the Constitution is the underlying legal document which all laws must be in accordance with. (A society without written laws is anarchistic, or despotic. A society without any laws at all is impossible.)