5 ms·

Yeah, the pay here in Toronto is much lower, even when you account for cost of living vs. San Fran. One consideration that offsets that is medical insurance. I

by alexc05 10y ago

Yeah, the pay here in Toronto is much lower, even when you account for cost of living vs. San Fran. One consideration that offsets that is medical insurance. If your health care is not fully covered by your employer. I ran some numbers once and the "rent difference" was roughly $3k (typical 1 - 2 bedroom apartment at $4k vs. The roughly $1k I spend) and the platinum medical looking like roughly $500/mo Add in a car, ($0 in Toronto, $1000 in The bay w/ parking, insurance, gas & the vehicle) All said and done, $55k appears to make the cost of living difference "break-even" If I'm on roughly $100k in Toronto, $155k would be even. Now that doesn't adjust for exchange rate, so you might get ~20% play there. Maybe the $135k median I've read about is roughly on target in terms of total food cost, etc...) I think there'd be some cachet to having a "big five" employer on your resume, so a year or two in one of the mega-shops would add value to future earnings if you started looking elsewhere, or a handful of other unicorn-class names might have a similar impact. All in all, I'm not convinced that taking a San Fran gig would necessarily feel like streets paved with gold and scooping up baskets of money (which grows on trees), so much as it'd be a nice, sunny, ultra-nerdy town in the heart of movin' & shakin' Incidentally, if anyone would like to disabuse me of any errors in my napkin math, I would welcome it. I'd love to get a more realistic idea of the difference.

shurcooL 10y ago
> Add in a car, ($0 in Toronto, $1000 in The bay w/ parking, insurance, gas & the vehicle) My observation is that's great to not have a car in SF, I prefer not to. But it's impossible not to have a car in Toronto. Why is it $0 in Toronto?
- raverbashing 10y ago
  Doesn't look too impossible to not have a car in Toronto (also there are things like Car2Go, no?)
  - johan_larson 10y ago
    Going carless in Toronto is very possible. After I moved to my current digs at Yonge and Eglinton, I noticed I used my car less than once a month, so I got rid of it. If you're gonna do this, make sure you're near the subway. Buses and streetcars are a lot less convenient than the subway.
- hughes 10y ago
  Impossible? I lived in Toronto for ten years without a car and never had trouble getting around. $0 is a bit misleading, as you will need $130/mo for a metropass.
  - alexc05 10y ago
    I'm shoes & a bike... Which is how I got away with claiming $0 on that, but yeah, I'd go so far as to concede a metro-pass could be required for some. Personally, it's a 20 minute walk to work at Yonge & bloor ... So car isn't really critical here for me.
- wahnfrieden 10y ago
  Toronto without a car is very easy so long as you live and work along a subway line, or less ideally, streetcar lines. Uber fills in the gaps.
- alexc05 10y ago
  Great to hear you can go without a car in SF I'm a 20 minute walk to work in Toronto with a large grocery store across the street from home. Basically everything can be done on foot. Add in a bike and a nice transit system and no-car is pretty easy here. Are you in SF? Does $4k for a 1 bed+den seem to be in the ballpark?
  - greenleafjacob 10y ago
    Median 1 bed is $3500-3700. Median 2 bed is $4700-4900.
  - mrgordon 10y ago
    Rents can vary widely but I think $3000 is probably a more reasonable estimate. The transit estimates also seem too high - I spend almost nothing because I can walk to work and take a Lyft Line for $5 or a bus for $2.25 if I need to. Many people bike. Overall it would be fairly easy to only spend a few hundred a month on transit for many people if your apartment isn't too isolated.
    - acchow 10y ago
      You cannot get a 1BR+den for $3000 in SF. It'll be just over $4k since it'll be similar square footage to a 2BR but discounted for not having the proper second bedroom.
      - mrgordon 10y ago
        I pay less than $3000 actually and see similar listings
jt2190 10y ago
Taxes? Canadians jump very quickly into the highest tax brackets. Goods and Services are taxed in Ontario at... 14% now?
- alexc05 10y ago
  Perhaps surprisingly, that's mostly a wash. Canadian federal tax is 33% over 200k USA is 33% over 189K Ontario taxes 11.16% up to 500k California 9.3% up to 250k ... Ok so realistically 2% in taxes :). Maybe that's not a total wash. But if we're looking at the break-even point it might hit $3k in California's favor
  - Bahamut 10y ago
    California's taxes are not straightforward. For example, my effective state tax rate is ~7.3% at $160k. It's a progressive tax, so calculations aren't as easy as slapping a generalized number. If you're making $500k, it also isn't likely a high point of concern.
  - bsurmanski 10y ago
    don't forget social security. Social security is 5.65%, whereas the equivalent in Canada is the Canadian Pension Plan, which is 4.95%. And you have great medical insurance built right in. [0] [0] - http://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0411/do-canadians-really-pay-more-taxes-than-americans.aspx http://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0411/do-canadians...
    - cldellow 10y ago
      And social security is owed up to the first ~$110K of income, whereas CPP is only owed on the first ~$50K of income.
    - jt2190 10y ago
      That source includes savings due to the exchange rate, even though wages would be in CAD
  - bsurmanski 10y ago
rhc2104 10y ago
If you were moving to the US and were worried about cost of living, Seattle would be a great option. You'd probably spend 2k on an apartment there, making the math much more enticing to move.
jgh 10y ago
wait wait wait -- you're able to find a decent apartment for $1k in Toronto? I was there and lived in a shithole for $1200 and that was 6 years ago.
potatolicious 10y ago
> "I'm not convinced that taking a San Fran gig would necessarily feel like streets paved with gold and scooping up baskets of money" It won't necessarily, but it may - one important distinction between the US tech hubs like SV or NYC is that while they offer a higher median salary, they top end of the envelope goes way, way higher than it does anywhere in Canada. There is a class of jobs/positions that straight up do not exist in Canada where large numbers of engineers can make $400-500k, or even more. An evaluation of whether or not it's worth moving needs to consider where you are in the market. If you're making $70k in Toronto right now and some company in the Bay Area is offering $100k, that's probably a tough deal. On the other hand, if you qualify for someone of the higher-end positions in the Bay Area, you can go from making $90k in Toronto to making $400k in the Valley. That's a pretty slam dunk deal.

by alexc05 10y ago

shurcooL 10y ago

> Add in a car, ($0 in Toronto, $1000 in The bay w/ parking, insurance, gas & the vehicle) My observation is that's great to not have a car in SF, I prefer not to. But it's impossible not to have a car in Toronto. Why is it $0 in Toronto?

raverbashing 10y ago
Doesn't look too impossible to not have a car in Toronto (also there are things like Car2Go, no?)
- johan_larson 10y ago
  Going carless in Toronto is very possible. After I moved to my current digs at Yonge and Eglinton, I noticed I used my car less than once a month, so I got rid of it. If you're gonna do this, make sure you're near the subway. Buses and streetcars are a lot less convenient than the subway.
hughes 10y ago
Impossible? I lived in Toronto for ten years without a car and never had trouble getting around. $0 is a bit misleading, as you will need $130/mo for a metropass.
- alexc05 10y ago
  I'm shoes & a bike... Which is how I got away with claiming $0 on that, but yeah, I'd go so far as to concede a metro-pass could be required for some. Personally, it's a 20 minute walk to work at Yonge & bloor ... So car isn't really critical here for me.
wahnfrieden 10y ago
Toronto without a car is very easy so long as you live and work along a subway line, or less ideally, streetcar lines. Uber fills in the gaps.
alexc05 10y ago
Great to hear you can go without a car in SF I'm a 20 minute walk to work in Toronto with a large grocery store across the street from home. Basically everything can be done on foot. Add in a bike and a nice transit system and no-car is pretty easy here. Are you in SF? Does $4k for a 1 bed+den seem to be in the ballpark?
- greenleafjacob 10y ago
  Median 1 bed is $3500-3700. Median 2 bed is $4700-4900.
- mrgordon 10y ago
  Rents can vary widely but I think $3000 is probably a more reasonable estimate. The transit estimates also seem too high - I spend almost nothing because I can walk to work and take a Lyft Line for $5 or a bus for $2.25 if I need to. Many people bike. Overall it would be fairly easy to only spend a few hundred a month on transit for many people if your apartment isn't too isolated.
  - acchow 10y ago
    You cannot get a 1BR+den for $3000 in SF. It'll be just over $4k since it'll be similar square footage to a 2BR but discounted for not having the proper second bedroom.
    - mrgordon 10y ago
      I pay less than $3000 actually and see similar listings

jt2190 10y ago

Taxes? Canadians jump very quickly into the highest tax brackets. Goods and Services are taxed in Ontario at... 14% now?

alexc05 10y ago
Perhaps surprisingly, that's mostly a wash. Canadian federal tax is 33% over 200k USA is 33% over 189K Ontario taxes 11.16% up to 500k California 9.3% up to 250k ... Ok so realistically 2% in taxes :). Maybe that's not a total wash. But if we're looking at the break-even point it might hit $3k in California's favor
- Bahamut 10y ago
  California's taxes are not straightforward. For example, my effective state tax rate is ~7.3% at $160k. It's a progressive tax, so calculations aren't as easy as slapping a generalized number. If you're making $500k, it also isn't likely a high point of concern.
- bsurmanski 10y ago
  don't forget social security. Social security is 5.65%, whereas the equivalent in Canada is the Canadian Pension Plan, which is 4.95%. And you have great medical insurance built right in. [0] [0] - http://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0411/do-canadians-really-pay-more-taxes-than-americans.aspx http://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0411/do-canadians...
  - cldellow 10y ago
    And social security is owed up to the first ~$110K of income, whereas CPP is only owed on the first ~$50K of income.
  - jt2190 10y ago
    That source includes savings due to the exchange rate, even though wages would be in CAD
- bsurmanski 10y ago

rhc2104 10y ago

If you were moving to the US and were worried about cost of living, Seattle would be a great option. You'd probably spend 2k on an apartment there, making the math much more enticing to move.

jgh 10y ago

wait wait wait -- you're able to find a decent apartment for $1k in Toronto? I was there and lived in a shithole for $1200 and that was 6 years ago.

potatolicious 10y ago

> "I'm not convinced that taking a San Fran gig would necessarily feel like streets paved with gold and scooping up baskets of money" It won't necessarily, but it may - one important distinction between the US tech hubs like SV or NYC is that while they offer a higher median salary, they top end of the envelope goes way, way higher than it does anywhere in Canada. There is a class of jobs/positions that straight up do not exist in Canada where large numbers of engineers can make $400-500k, or even more. An evaluation of whether or not it's worth moving needs to consider where you are in the market. If you're making $70k in Toronto right now and some company in the Bay Area is offering $100k, that's probably a tough deal. On the other hand, if you qualify for someone of the higher-end positions in the Bay Area, you can go from making $90k in Toronto to making $400k in the Valley. That's a pretty slam dunk deal.