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>Are we like gun manufacturers who can simply say "it's not our fault that our tools are used for evil?" It's not their fault. You'd have to be an idiot to no

>Are we like gun manufacturers who can simply say "it's not our fault that our tools are used for evil?" It's not their fault. You'd have to be an idiot to now understand what guns are for: they're weapons designed to kill people efficiently. They can be used for good or evil, just like cars. Some guy in a pickup just murdered 5 bicyclists in Michigan; should we ban pickups because of this? The whole thing about suing gun manufacturers is incredibly stupid. They're producing a product that is a tool for a certain purpose; if that product is used successfully for that purpose, but for killing someone who's innocent, that's not the manufacturer's fault, it's the user's fault. If you don't like that, then you need to enact laws to limit who's allowed to buy guns, instead of holding manufacturers responsible for improper usage. Using the court system to bankrupt gunmakers is nothing more than abuse of the legal system because some people couldn't achieve a political victory and get a legislative solution. If you really don't want people to have guns at all, then you need to ban guns from being sold to civilians, not allow it willy-nilly and then allow them to get sued. It's asinine. It's like allowing liquor store owners to sell to minors and then allowing them to be sued when those minors get drunk and do stupid stuff. If you don't want kids drinking, then pass a law forbidding it; don't muddy up the court system with BS cases because you couldn't figure out how to pass a law fixing the problem. Personally, I do think we have done a poor job in limiting who has access to guns, but abusing the court system is not the answer. The answer is to pass better laws, get better background checks, etc. If you can't do that, you need to find some better candidates that people actually want to vote for.

evan_ 10y ago
In a vacuum I would agree with you that simply manufacturing guns does not in itself lead to gun violence. The person buying the gun is ultimately responsible for its use. However, gun manufacturers don't operate in a vacuum. Gun manufacturers, through marketing and sponsorships, have intentionally worked to create a culture where people feel that they need to have a gun to feel safe. The NRA, working in concert with firearm manufacturers, has for decades pushed the idea that a home with guns in it is safer than a home without- this sells guns, but it couldn't be further from the truth. Enthusiast magazines, blogs, and radio shows, sponsored by firearm and ammunition manufacturers, espouse the idea that the end of the world is coming in the form of Islamic terror, and to be prepared you must buy as many guns and as much ammunition as you can. Politicians, lobbied by the NRA, preach that Obama and Clinton are going to take your guns away, so you need to buy more. These are all calculated actions designed to increase the fear and panic in the public, and to convince them that the only solution to this fear is to buy more guns. This results in scared, afraid people with deadly weapons and frequently little-to-no training. The form of these lawsuits would not be "you made this gun so you are responsible for how it's used", they would be "to sell your product, you generated endless reams of propaganda to intentionally create the circumstances which led to" whatever specific thing, be it an intentional or accidental shooting. I'm not saying that this is definitely true, or that there is strong enough evidence that this is true to win what would be a very contentious lawsuit- but I think you're wrong to suggest it's a completely frivolous question.
- Houshalter 10y ago
  You can't sue someone for speaking or advertising ideas you don't agree with. The NRA could start printing copies of Mein Kampf and cause the rise of a new Nazi movement, and I'd still defend their right to free speech. I also don't agree with your assumption that conservatives and readers of gun magazines are responsible for most of the homicide rate. If you banned gun magazines and blogs or whatever you think is responsible, I doubt gun ownership would go down. And even if it did, I doubt the homicide rate would go down due to it. Gun collectors are not more likely to be involved in crime. I believe that if you control for drug violence and poverty and other factors, the US homicide rate isn't that much worse than countries with gun control. And gun manufacturers certainly aren't responsible for those things.
  - evan_ 10y ago
    I'm not saying this is the cause of gun-related death but there are some cases where it may be a factor, and those are the cases where it might be reasonable to pursue a lawsuit. I don't know why you think I'm trying to surpress free speech. It's widely agreed that free speech is not freedom from consequence of that speech.
    - Houshalter 10y ago
      Yes it is. Otherwise you could sue almost anyone for anything. Sue the car manufacturers which encourage people to buy automobiles which kill far more than guns.

evan_ 10y ago

In a vacuum I would agree with you that simply manufacturing guns does not in itself lead to gun violence. The person buying the gun is ultimately responsible for its use. However, gun manufacturers don't operate in a vacuum. Gun manufacturers, through marketing and sponsorships, have intentionally worked to create a culture where people feel that they need to have a gun to feel safe. The NRA, working in concert with firearm manufacturers, has for decades pushed the idea that a home with guns in it is safer than a home without- this sells guns, but it couldn't be further from the truth. Enthusiast magazines, blogs, and radio shows, sponsored by firearm and ammunition manufacturers, espouse the idea that the end of the world is coming in the form of Islamic terror, and to be prepared you must buy as many guns and as much ammunition as you can. Politicians, lobbied by the NRA, preach that Obama and Clinton are going to take your guns away, so you need to buy more. These are all calculated actions designed to increase the fear and panic in the public, and to convince them that the only solution to this fear is to buy more guns. This results in scared, afraid people with deadly weapons and frequently little-to-no training. The form of these lawsuits would not be "you made this gun so you are responsible for how it's used", they would be "to sell your product, you generated endless reams of propaganda to intentionally create the circumstances which led to" whatever specific thing, be it an intentional or accidental shooting. I'm not saying that this is definitely true, or that there is strong enough evidence that this is true to win what would be a very contentious lawsuit- but I think you're wrong to suggest it's a completely frivolous question.

Houshalter 10y ago
You can't sue someone for speaking or advertising ideas you don't agree with. The NRA could start printing copies of Mein Kampf and cause the rise of a new Nazi movement, and I'd still defend their right to free speech. I also don't agree with your assumption that conservatives and readers of gun magazines are responsible for most of the homicide rate. If you banned gun magazines and blogs or whatever you think is responsible, I doubt gun ownership would go down. And even if it did, I doubt the homicide rate would go down due to it. Gun collectors are not more likely to be involved in crime. I believe that if you control for drug violence and poverty and other factors, the US homicide rate isn't that much worse than countries with gun control. And gun manufacturers certainly aren't responsible for those things.
- evan_ 10y ago
  I'm not saying this is the cause of gun-related death but there are some cases where it may be a factor, and those are the cases where it might be reasonable to pursue a lawsuit. I don't know why you think I'm trying to surpress free speech. It's widely agreed that free speech is not freedom from consequence of that speech.
  - Houshalter 10y ago
    Yes it is. Otherwise you could sue almost anyone for anything. Sue the car manufacturers which encourage people to buy automobiles which kill far more than guns.