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I did. Toronto is a great city. I've traveled a good deal in Canada, and the US, and while I can't compare it to cities outside of those two, I will say that I

by chawco 10y ago

I did. Toronto is a great city. I've traveled a good deal in Canada, and the US, and while I can't compare it to cities outside of those two, I will say that I still consider the best city I've ever experienced. While the tech scene isn't as hot as the other regions you mentioned, it's still strong. Very strong. It's also starting to be noticed by the bigger players (with Google and Apple both investing in the region). Currently I'd say the biggest weakness for tech in Toronto is the financing side, with the traditional financiers being very focused on revenue and getting cash flow positive early in a company's cycle (a very Canadian, risk averse business culture), as opposed to the riskier but higher reward models favoured in the valley. But the greatest strength is easy to spot: the city itself. It would be easy to argue that Toronto is the most cosmopolitan city in the world. The standard of living and quality of life are very high, and widely recognized by publications such as The Economist. The diversity in the city isn't just surface deep either: Toronto boasts one of the most diverse economies for a large city in North America. The strong tech industry sits aside a very strong finance industry, media industry (tons of television shows and movies are produced in Toronto), fashion industry and others. The way I like to explain it to people is that Toronto is not the best at anything -- but it is among the best in almost everything. So there's lots of work. The other ingredient is that there is also lots to do. The strong cosmopolitan nature of the city means a dizzying array of options for dining. Those options are not just the affordable "ethnic food" you typically think of, but run the full gamut from affordable and delicious to some of North America's best fine dining. To that you can add world class museums, excellent (if under built) transit, many interesting bars and cafes, housing that's quite affordable compared to the bay area (I own a townhouse close to the city centre), hot summers and reasonably mild winters, government provided universal health care, and so on and so on. So yes, people definitely do move here to join the tech scene, but not people whose ONLY consideration is the work they do everyday. That's an important consideration -- perhaps THE most important consideration when looking for a place to live, but it should not be your only consideration. Once you start to add in the other factors Toronto looks fantastic.

vigilant 10y ago
I do love Canada, but New York City has nearly all of those same positives which you list (other than universal health care), to an even greater extent. And you can get bay-area level salaries there (as opposed to Toronto, where your salary is half what it would be in the bay area)
- chawco 10y ago
  I spent a good deal of time in New York when I was younger -- in Manhattan working for an investment bank in technology. I didn't really explore the other boroughs much, but I did stay in the city for an extended period of time (~6 months in one go). I've also spent a good deal of time in the bay area (San Francisco), so the point where I spent more than half of my time there as opposed to here in Toronto. All of that is to say, I'm making a very conscious comparison between the options. As far as New York goes, I'd argue it's less liveable than Toronto (or at least it was nearly 10 years go). It's much, much more expensive, much busier (obviously), and probably has the best amenities of any big city anywhere in the world. That being said, I'd also argue that it's less cosmopolitan than Toronto. New York is among the most cosmopolitan cities in the world of course, but I think Toronto beats it. I could be convinced otherwise, but in my experience Toronto is simply the best with respect to diversity, interesting people interacting and getting along, and being a fantastic mix of cultures from literally all over the globe. Then there's the expense -- the likelihood of me being able to own a 3 bedroom house in Manhattan doing what I currently do is zero. It just isn't happening. In Toronto I live only about 3km from the financial district, and I can get to my office in an Uber in under 10 minutes. I'm at an age where I'm starting a family, and I live in a very family friendly urban area -- there's even an elementary school on my street. And yes, bay area level salaries are hard to come by here -- I was earning one when the exchange rate was closer to parity a few years back, and subsequent pay adjustments have not kept up with the weakness of the Canadian dollar since the collapse of the oil market. The salaries are lower, but they're nowhere near half. And that's fine, as I'm still paid very well, and my standard of living is unobtainable in New York or San Francisco without earning substantially above market rates in either market.
  - sotojuan 10y ago
    > I could be convinced otherwise, but in my experience Toronto is simply the best with respect to diversity, interesting people interacting and getting along, and being a fantastic mix of cultures from literally all over the globe. > I didn't really explore the other boroughs much Maybe that's why you think that :-)
  - gabbo 10y ago
lj3 10y ago
Are you an American or a Canadian? As an American, every time I talk to a Canadian company they assume there must be something wrong with me. They don't understand why anybody would choose the cold and less pay over someplace like SF.
- chawco 10y ago
  I'm Canadian, so obviously there's some inherent bias. Part of it is the annoyance of visa, permanent resident, and citizenship shenanigans necessary to get into the US (TN visas are non-residency track). Part of it is cultural -- I feel like people are friendlier here in general (although the difference isn't so great in the bay area), even in the bigger cities. Part of it is really hard to describe -- there's just something that feels grimy about American cities in general. By comparison virtually every Canadian city I've been in feels much cleaner than every american city I've been in. San Francisco and New York can feel particularly bad -- I never smell human urine walking down the street in Toronto, but it's a regular occurrence for me in San Francisco. Then there's the homeless situation. Toronto is by no means free of homeless people, but the problem seems to exist on a completely different scale than it does in San Francisco or New York. It really makes a big difference in how you experience a city, for me at least.
- halostatue 10y ago
  The company I’m a development manager at wouldn’t look at you funny, partially because I’m an immigrant from America and completely agree with you (I do not want to work in America, and would leave any company that decided to move all of its jobs there).
Cyph0n 10y ago
How difficult is it for a U.S. citizen to relocate and start working there? Healthcare is only for Canadians, correct?
- johan_larson 10y ago
  If you have a job offer, my impression is that it's fairly straightforward to get Canadian residency. Government-funded healthcare (OHIP in Ontario) is extended to all residents. There is a three-month waiting period for it to kick in unless you are in one of several special groups, which you probably wouldn't be. http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/public/publications/ohip/ohip_eligibility.aspx http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/public/publications/ohip/ohip... http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/public/programs/ohip/ohipfaq_mn.aspx http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/public/programs/ohip/ohipfaq_...
- alexc05 10y ago
  No, we'd keep you healthy if you showed up... I lived abroad for 5 years and bought 3 months of blue cross (medical insurance) when I got back, then I was straight back onto the taxpayers' dime. (Which, to be fair, I'm one of)
- halostatue 10y ago
  Healthcare is for legal taxpayers. When I immigrated (18 years ago; I’m not sure I’d qualify now, but that’s because of shifting priorities in job needs) it took three months of being uninsured and my PR papers to get my OHIP card that I’ve had since.
- wbkang 10y ago
  Anyone who's been working legally for 3 months is eligible for healthcare.

by chawco 10y ago

vigilant 10y ago

I do love Canada, but New York City has nearly all of those same positives which you list (other than universal health care), to an even greater extent. And you can get bay-area level salaries there (as opposed to Toronto, where your salary is half what it would be in the bay area)

chawco 10y ago
I spent a good deal of time in New York when I was younger -- in Manhattan working for an investment bank in technology. I didn't really explore the other boroughs much, but I did stay in the city for an extended period of time (~6 months in one go). I've also spent a good deal of time in the bay area (San Francisco), so the point where I spent more than half of my time there as opposed to here in Toronto. All of that is to say, I'm making a very conscious comparison between the options. As far as New York goes, I'd argue it's less liveable than Toronto (or at least it was nearly 10 years go). It's much, much more expensive, much busier (obviously), and probably has the best amenities of any big city anywhere in the world. That being said, I'd also argue that it's less cosmopolitan than Toronto. New York is among the most cosmopolitan cities in the world of course, but I think Toronto beats it. I could be convinced otherwise, but in my experience Toronto is simply the best with respect to diversity, interesting people interacting and getting along, and being a fantastic mix of cultures from literally all over the globe. Then there's the expense -- the likelihood of me being able to own a 3 bedroom house in Manhattan doing what I currently do is zero. It just isn't happening. In Toronto I live only about 3km from the financial district, and I can get to my office in an Uber in under 10 minutes. I'm at an age where I'm starting a family, and I live in a very family friendly urban area -- there's even an elementary school on my street. And yes, bay area level salaries are hard to come by here -- I was earning one when the exchange rate was closer to parity a few years back, and subsequent pay adjustments have not kept up with the weakness of the Canadian dollar since the collapse of the oil market. The salaries are lower, but they're nowhere near half. And that's fine, as I'm still paid very well, and my standard of living is unobtainable in New York or San Francisco without earning substantially above market rates in either market.
- sotojuan 10y ago
  > I could be convinced otherwise, but in my experience Toronto is simply the best with respect to diversity, interesting people interacting and getting along, and being a fantastic mix of cultures from literally all over the globe. > I didn't really explore the other boroughs much Maybe that's why you think that :-)
- gabbo 10y ago

lj3 10y ago

Are you an American or a Canadian? As an American, every time I talk to a Canadian company they assume there must be something wrong with me. They don't understand why anybody would choose the cold and less pay over someplace like SF.

chawco 10y ago
I'm Canadian, so obviously there's some inherent bias. Part of it is the annoyance of visa, permanent resident, and citizenship shenanigans necessary to get into the US (TN visas are non-residency track). Part of it is cultural -- I feel like people are friendlier here in general (although the difference isn't so great in the bay area), even in the bigger cities. Part of it is really hard to describe -- there's just something that feels grimy about American cities in general. By comparison virtually every Canadian city I've been in feels much cleaner than every american city I've been in. San Francisco and New York can feel particularly bad -- I never smell human urine walking down the street in Toronto, but it's a regular occurrence for me in San Francisco. Then there's the homeless situation. Toronto is by no means free of homeless people, but the problem seems to exist on a completely different scale than it does in San Francisco or New York. It really makes a big difference in how you experience a city, for me at least.
halostatue 10y ago
The company I’m a development manager at wouldn’t look at you funny, partially because I’m an immigrant from America and completely agree with you (I do not want to work in America, and would leave any company that decided to move all of its jobs there).

Cyph0n 10y ago

How difficult is it for a U.S. citizen to relocate and start working there? Healthcare is only for Canadians, correct?

johan_larson 10y ago
If you have a job offer, my impression is that it's fairly straightforward to get Canadian residency. Government-funded healthcare (OHIP in Ontario) is extended to all residents. There is a three-month waiting period for it to kick in unless you are in one of several special groups, which you probably wouldn't be. http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/public/publications/ohip/ohip_eligibility.aspx http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/public/publications/ohip/ohip... http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/public/programs/ohip/ohipfaq_mn.aspx http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/public/programs/ohip/ohipfaq_...
alexc05 10y ago
No, we'd keep you healthy if you showed up... I lived abroad for 5 years and bought 3 months of blue cross (medical insurance) when I got back, then I was straight back onto the taxpayers' dime. (Which, to be fair, I'm one of)
halostatue 10y ago
Healthcare is for legal taxpayers. When I immigrated (18 years ago; I’m not sure I’d qualify now, but that’s because of shifting priorities in job needs) it took three months of being uninsured and my PR papers to get my OHIP card that I’ve had since.
wbkang 10y ago
Anyone who's been working legally for 3 months is eligible for healthcare.