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Who is going to move to Toronto to join the tech scene? If given the choice who is going to choose Toronto over Bay Area or Seattle? Without it having a massiv

Who is going to move to Toronto to join the tech scene? If given the choice who is going to choose Toronto over Bay Area or Seattle? Without it having a massive draw it won't even register compared to Bay Area or even Seattle.

shazow 10y ago
After being in the Bay Area for the past 7 years, I'm moving back to Toronto next week. Can't wait.
- hughes 10y ago
  Congrats! What convinced you to go back?
  - shazow 10y ago
    I loved living in Toronto, it's a great city. Like any city, it has its problems, but it feels like a healthy city. There's good transit, it's reasonably affordable[0], there is great diversity, there is tech but there is also everything else. Living around SF, the problems don't feel like they're being treated, but rather covered up with more and more money. It feels dysfunctional on too many levels (many of these problems are not at the municipal level). At this point, I can't afford to live anywhere near the SF core (and I'm not sure I'd want to if I could) while maintaining the lifestyle that is important to me. Living on the outskirts has taken a big toll on my happiness over the years, and it's a good time for us to move for a multitude of other reasons of varying importance (political, cultural, financial, social, etc). I hope Toronto becomes an even more important player in tech, but it's in a great position even as it is. [0] People constantly debate that Toronto is overpriced because prices keep going up, but it's still very cheap compared to most other cities in the world of similar calibre.
simonbarker87 10y ago
Visa's a way more friendly and straight forward for Canada than the US. We'd love to move to the US but life's too short for the visa process, my wife and I are both PhDs, electrical engineers (4 years automotive and 5 start up experience) and I genuinely can't see a sensible route in to the US, Canada looks pretty straight forward though.
patrick_99 10y ago
People who can't get visas to the US
Aelinsaar 10y ago
One earthquake could change that overnight. If they're betting on that eventually, they just need to stay lined up in the #2 slot.
anonymousab 10y ago
Waterloo and Toronto alumni, presumably.
- stuxnet79 10y ago
  No a lot of us are either staying here and working remotely for companies stateside or we are moving to the states altogether. This is especially true of Waterloo. Most of the Waterloo devs I know, and they are really good mind you, are either in Seattle or Bay Area working for one of the Big 4. To stay competitive, Toronto will have to reel these individuals in and I don't believe there's sufficient incentive to accomplish that right now. See this[1] for instance. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/2d7818/why_are_salaries_in_toronto_much_lower_than_other/ https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/2d7818/w...
- personjerry 10y ago
  Most the talent gets drawn to Silicon Valley, from what I've seen.
dasil003 10y ago
People without US citizenship/residency?
jacques_chester 10y ago
If someone made me choose between the Bay Area and Toronto, I would pick Toronto. Every day of the week. Toronto's great. Sure, it's like the planet Hoth for a third of the year. But in every other way it's a more liveable city. The public transport in the core of the city exists and works, rather than being a cobbled-together mishmash of uncoordinated systems of which 2 out of 3 seem to be broken at any time. The rent is a shit ton cheaper, the people are much nicer, the food is more varied, the city is gorgeous in summer, it's big enough to have serious amenities, small enough to be walkable and the people who look like lumberjacks probably are. I live in NYC, because I prefer it to SF as well. As an Australian citizen I find it significantly easier to work in the USA than in Canada. But if Toronto's scene were on a rough scale with NYC's and if the immigration thing could be sorted, I'd be tempted to move.
- uola 10y ago
  "If someone made me choose between the Bay Area and Toronto, I would pick Toronto" The thing is that for most people this wouldn't be the candidates. Toronto is probably a third tier city for startups, meaning there are more candidates and factors to consider.
- forgetsusername 10y ago
  >and the people who look like lumberjacks probably are. As someone who grew up in a forestry town in Northern Ontario...Toronto is a world away, and much more similar to the Bay Area than where I grew up.
  - jacques_chester 10y ago
    Oh, for sure. But there's Brooklyn hipsters, and SF hipsters, and Toronto hipsters, and then there are actual forestry workers who come into town.
    - MustardTiger 10y ago
      No they don't. Toronto is two plane rides away for them.
bsurmanski 10y ago
speaking as someone who has lived in both the Bay area and Toronto, I think Toronto has a chance. The Bay area is a nice place to work in your 20s, but it's not a good place to settle down. With housing prices, homeless population, just a general grime over most things. Toronto's the type of city you can move to when you thinking of settling down and starting a family. Very clean and friendly. Cheap enough to afford. That and not every Canadian wants to get a visa and live 4000km from everyone they've ever known.
sjg007 10y ago
I would. It is so expensive here...
- matt_wulfeck 10y ago
  If you think buying a house in the Bay Area is crazy, getting ready for the speculative madness of Toronto.
chawco 10y ago
I did. Toronto is a great city. I've traveled a good deal in Canada, and the US, and while I can't compare it to cities outside of those two, I will say that I still consider the best city I've ever experienced. While the tech scene isn't as hot as the other regions you mentioned, it's still strong. Very strong. It's also starting to be noticed by the bigger players (with Google and Apple both investing in the region). Currently I'd say the biggest weakness for tech in Toronto is the financing side, with the traditional financiers being very focused on revenue and getting cash flow positive early in a company's cycle (a very Canadian, risk averse business culture), as opposed to the riskier but higher reward models favoured in the valley. But the greatest strength is easy to spot: the city itself. It would be easy to argue that Toronto is the most cosmopolitan city in the world. The standard of living and quality of life are very high, and widely recognized by publications such as The Economist. The diversity in the city isn't just surface deep either: Toronto boasts one of the most diverse economies for a large city in North America. The strong tech industry sits aside a very strong finance industry, media industry (tons of television shows and movies are produced in Toronto), fashion industry and others. The way I like to explain it to people is that Toronto is not the best at anything -- but it is among the best in almost everything. So there's lots of work. The other ingredient is that there is also lots to do. The strong cosmopolitan nature of the city means a dizzying array of options for dining. Those options are not just the affordable "ethnic food" you typically think of, but run the full gamut from affordable and delicious to some of North America's best fine dining. To that you can add world class museums, excellent (if under built) transit, many interesting bars and cafes, housing that's quite affordable compared to the bay area (I own a townhouse close to the city centre), hot summers and reasonably mild winters, government provided universal health care, and so on and so on. So yes, people definitely do move here to join the tech scene, but not people whose ONLY consideration is the work they do everyday. That's an important consideration -- perhaps THE most important consideration when looking for a place to live, but it should not be your only consideration. Once you start to add in the other factors Toronto looks fantastic.
- vigilant 10y ago
  I do love Canada, but New York City has nearly all of those same positives which you list (other than universal health care), to an even greater extent. And you can get bay-area level salaries there (as opposed to Toronto, where your salary is half what it would be in the bay area)
halostatue 10y ago
I did, although eighteen years ago, and originally not for the tech scene as for love. But I am constantly telling recruiters who reach out to me that I have less than zero interest in working in the U.S., and more or less zero interest in working anywhere but Toronto. We may not be the “best” tech scene in North America (but I am currently running what I consider to be an amazing Rails-first team), but I can’t imagine wanting to live elsewhere permanently.

shazow 10y ago

After being in the Bay Area for the past 7 years, I'm moving back to Toronto next week. Can't wait.

hughes 10y ago
Congrats! What convinced you to go back?
- shazow 10y ago
  I loved living in Toronto, it's a great city. Like any city, it has its problems, but it feels like a healthy city. There's good transit, it's reasonably affordable[0], there is great diversity, there is tech but there is also everything else. Living around SF, the problems don't feel like they're being treated, but rather covered up with more and more money. It feels dysfunctional on too many levels (many of these problems are not at the municipal level). At this point, I can't afford to live anywhere near the SF core (and I'm not sure I'd want to if I could) while maintaining the lifestyle that is important to me. Living on the outskirts has taken a big toll on my happiness over the years, and it's a good time for us to move for a multitude of other reasons of varying importance (political, cultural, financial, social, etc). I hope Toronto becomes an even more important player in tech, but it's in a great position even as it is. [0] People constantly debate that Toronto is overpriced because prices keep going up, but it's still very cheap compared to most other cities in the world of similar calibre.

simonbarker87 10y ago

Visa's a way more friendly and straight forward for Canada than the US. We'd love to move to the US but life's too short for the visa process, my wife and I are both PhDs, electrical engineers (4 years automotive and 5 start up experience) and I genuinely can't see a sensible route in to the US, Canada looks pretty straight forward though.

patrick_99 10y ago

People who can't get visas to the US

Aelinsaar 10y ago

One earthquake could change that overnight. If they're betting on that eventually, they just need to stay lined up in the #2 slot.

anonymousab 10y ago

Waterloo and Toronto alumni, presumably.

stuxnet79 10y ago
No a lot of us are either staying here and working remotely for companies stateside or we are moving to the states altogether. This is especially true of Waterloo. Most of the Waterloo devs I know, and they are really good mind you, are either in Seattle or Bay Area working for one of the Big 4. To stay competitive, Toronto will have to reel these individuals in and I don't believe there's sufficient incentive to accomplish that right now. See this[1] for instance. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/2d7818/why_are_salaries_in_toronto_much_lower_than_other/ https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/2d7818/w...
personjerry 10y ago
Most the talent gets drawn to Silicon Valley, from what I've seen.

dasil003 10y ago

People without US citizenship/residency?

jacques_chester 10y ago

If someone made me choose between the Bay Area and Toronto, I would pick Toronto. Every day of the week. Toronto's great. Sure, it's like the planet Hoth for a third of the year. But in every other way it's a more liveable city. The public transport in the core of the city exists and works, rather than being a cobbled-together mishmash of uncoordinated systems of which 2 out of 3 seem to be broken at any time. The rent is a shit ton cheaper, the people are much nicer, the food is more varied, the city is gorgeous in summer, it's big enough to have serious amenities, small enough to be walkable and the people who look like lumberjacks probably are. I live in NYC, because I prefer it to SF as well. As an Australian citizen I find it significantly easier to work in the USA than in Canada. But if Toronto's scene were on a rough scale with NYC's and if the immigration thing could be sorted, I'd be tempted to move.

uola 10y ago
"If someone made me choose between the Bay Area and Toronto, I would pick Toronto" The thing is that for most people this wouldn't be the candidates. Toronto is probably a third tier city for startups, meaning there are more candidates and factors to consider.
forgetsusername 10y ago
>and the people who look like lumberjacks probably are. As someone who grew up in a forestry town in Northern Ontario...Toronto is a world away, and much more similar to the Bay Area than where I grew up.
- jacques_chester 10y ago
  Oh, for sure. But there's Brooklyn hipsters, and SF hipsters, and Toronto hipsters, and then there are actual forestry workers who come into town.
  - MustardTiger 10y ago
    No they don't. Toronto is two plane rides away for them.

bsurmanski 10y ago

speaking as someone who has lived in both the Bay area and Toronto, I think Toronto has a chance. The Bay area is a nice place to work in your 20s, but it's not a good place to settle down. With housing prices, homeless population, just a general grime over most things. Toronto's the type of city you can move to when you thinking of settling down and starting a family. Very clean and friendly. Cheap enough to afford. That and not every Canadian wants to get a visa and live 4000km from everyone they've ever known.

sjg007 10y ago

I would. It is so expensive here...

matt_wulfeck 10y ago
If you think buying a house in the Bay Area is crazy, getting ready for the speculative madness of Toronto.

chawco 10y ago

I did. Toronto is a great city. I've traveled a good deal in Canada, and the US, and while I can't compare it to cities outside of those two, I will say that I still consider the best city I've ever experienced. While the tech scene isn't as hot as the other regions you mentioned, it's still strong. Very strong. It's also starting to be noticed by the bigger players (with Google and Apple both investing in the region). Currently I'd say the biggest weakness for tech in Toronto is the financing side, with the traditional financiers being very focused on revenue and getting cash flow positive early in a company's cycle (a very Canadian, risk averse business culture), as opposed to the riskier but higher reward models favoured in the valley. But the greatest strength is easy to spot: the city itself. It would be easy to argue that Toronto is the most cosmopolitan city in the world. The standard of living and quality of life are very high, and widely recognized by publications such as The Economist. The diversity in the city isn't just surface deep either: Toronto boasts one of the most diverse economies for a large city in North America. The strong tech industry sits aside a very strong finance industry, media industry (tons of television shows and movies are produced in Toronto), fashion industry and others. The way I like to explain it to people is that Toronto is not the best at anything -- but it is among the best in almost everything. So there's lots of work. The other ingredient is that there is also lots to do. The strong cosmopolitan nature of the city means a dizzying array of options for dining. Those options are not just the affordable "ethnic food" you typically think of, but run the full gamut from affordable and delicious to some of North America's best fine dining. To that you can add world class museums, excellent (if under built) transit, many interesting bars and cafes, housing that's quite affordable compared to the bay area (I own a townhouse close to the city centre), hot summers and reasonably mild winters, government provided universal health care, and so on and so on. So yes, people definitely do move here to join the tech scene, but not people whose ONLY consideration is the work they do everyday. That's an important consideration -- perhaps THE most important consideration when looking for a place to live, but it should not be your only consideration. Once you start to add in the other factors Toronto looks fantastic.

vigilant 10y ago
I do love Canada, but New York City has nearly all of those same positives which you list (other than universal health care), to an even greater extent. And you can get bay-area level salaries there (as opposed to Toronto, where your salary is half what it would be in the bay area)

halostatue 10y ago

I did, although eighteen years ago, and originally not for the tech scene as for love. But I am constantly telling recruiters who reach out to me that I have less than zero interest in working in the U.S., and more or less zero interest in working anywhere but Toronto. We may not be the “best” tech scene in North America (but I am currently running what I consider to be an amazing Rails-first team), but I can’t imagine wanting to live elsewhere permanently.