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Another title for your list is "The Hidden Persuaders". I don't know too many (3/5) of the things to which you link, and I love Adam Curtis dearly, but it seem

Another title for your list is "The Hidden Persuaders". I don't know too many (3/5) of the things to which you link, and I love Adam Curtis dearly, but it seems like there's always a hint of paranoia to those things. Filtering advertising is something that just seems like a good idea to me.

the_af 10y ago
> it seems like there's always a hint of paranoia to those things. If you mean the reading list the parent post mentioned, I must disagree. Carl Sagan's books are about scientific divulgation. In fact, "The Demon Haunted World" isn't about conspiracy theories but about the scientific method and how it differs from pseudoscience, and how to avoid falling prey to tempting but irrational ideas (what he calls "The baloney detection kit"). The other book by Sagan is likewise about science, not about persecution or being "an outlier". Noam Chomsky's book is different. Of course, writings about the control of the media by the few and the manipulation of public opinion can, when looked through the warped lens of someone with a persecution complex, look like confirmation that "they" are after you. But Chomsky isn't paranoid, he is political. I'm less familiar with the rest of the books, but at a quick glance they don't seem to have a hint of paranoia to me.
- ArkyBeagle 10y ago
  I've not read that Sagan book ( nor Dragons of Eden ) , but in general, you're absolutely correct - his are pure scientific storytelling. I maintain that Adam Curtis, Nassem Taleb and Manufacturing Consent are on a subject in which it's impossible to not be a teeny bit paranoid ( Bernays and propaganda/advertising ) but yes, Chomsky is in general just scholarly. This being said, his work does involve descriptions of systems in which he believes people abuse power.
  - mercer 10y ago
    > I maintain that Adam Curtis, Nassem Taleb and Manufacturing Consent are on a subject in which it's impossible to not be a teeny bit paranoid I see what you mean, and I find 'teeny bit paranoid' as a concept so intensely frustrating! We're using a word that by definition is extreme, and then use it in a situation where it doesn't really apply (on account of it being a 'teeny bit so'). It's basically 'guilt by association'. It's akin to calling someone's views a 'teeny bit mysogynic', or 'a teeny bit racist', makes as much sense as 'somewhat unique', but it basically removes any gray area from the discussion. I understand why and how this happens, but it's so frustratingly effective to shut down any kind of interesting avenue of discussion. (Edit: it gets worse when, in a conversation, an actual full-blown mysogynist or racist decides to come to your aid, although sometimes the resulting conversation is so farcical to be funny again) (Edit 2: that one guy with that blog with codex in it that is often posted to HN wrote about this quite eloquently, if I remember correctly)
    - ArkyBeagle 10y ago
      I'm not sure what to say - there isn't a proper word to substitute with. I don't really know what the limits of resolution of paranoia, racism or misogyny are.
  - vithlani 10y ago
    Sorry, how do you associate Nassem Taleb with paranoia?
tunap 10y ago
Absolutely, if you mean the Frontline documentary from 2004. Poignant more so today than when it 1st aired. I'll double check "Hidden Persuaders", though. Problem is, everyone seems to be emulating the advertizers, selling what they deem to be the best X. These social networks are conditioning people to be salespeople, IMO. I am guilty, too.
- ArkyBeagle 10y ago
  "The Hidden Persuaders" is a book by Vance Packard from the late 1950s. It discusses the Bernays phenomenon and how OSS propagandists went into advertising after WWII.
  - tunap 10y ago
    Thanks, I'll check it out. Another great book from that era, outdated & pertinent @ same time, is Boorstin's 'The Image: A Guide To Psuedo-Events In America'.
    - ArkyBeagle 10y ago
      What a great (sub) title. Thanks!

the_af 10y ago

> it seems like there's always a hint of paranoia to those things. If you mean the reading list the parent post mentioned, I must disagree. Carl Sagan's books are about scientific divulgation. In fact, "The Demon Haunted World" isn't about conspiracy theories but about the scientific method and how it differs from pseudoscience, and how to avoid falling prey to tempting but irrational ideas (what he calls "The baloney detection kit"). The other book by Sagan is likewise about science, not about persecution or being "an outlier". Noam Chomsky's book is different. Of course, writings about the control of the media by the few and the manipulation of public opinion can, when looked through the warped lens of someone with a persecution complex, look like confirmation that "they" are after you. But Chomsky isn't paranoid, he is political. I'm less familiar with the rest of the books, but at a quick glance they don't seem to have a hint of paranoia to me.

ArkyBeagle 10y ago
I've not read that Sagan book ( nor Dragons of Eden ) , but in general, you're absolutely correct - his are pure scientific storytelling. I maintain that Adam Curtis, Nassem Taleb and Manufacturing Consent are on a subject in which it's impossible to not be a teeny bit paranoid ( Bernays and propaganda/advertising ) but yes, Chomsky is in general just scholarly. This being said, his work does involve descriptions of systems in which he believes people abuse power.
- mercer 10y ago
  > I maintain that Adam Curtis, Nassem Taleb and Manufacturing Consent are on a subject in which it's impossible to not be a teeny bit paranoid I see what you mean, and I find 'teeny bit paranoid' as a concept so intensely frustrating! We're using a word that by definition is extreme, and then use it in a situation where it doesn't really apply (on account of it being a 'teeny bit so'). It's basically 'guilt by association'. It's akin to calling someone's views a 'teeny bit mysogynic', or 'a teeny bit racist', makes as much sense as 'somewhat unique', but it basically removes any gray area from the discussion. I understand why and how this happens, but it's so frustratingly effective to shut down any kind of interesting avenue of discussion. (Edit: it gets worse when, in a conversation, an actual full-blown mysogynist or racist decides to come to your aid, although sometimes the resulting conversation is so farcical to be funny again) (Edit 2: that one guy with that blog with codex in it that is often posted to HN wrote about this quite eloquently, if I remember correctly)
  - ArkyBeagle 10y ago
    I'm not sure what to say - there isn't a proper word to substitute with. I don't really know what the limits of resolution of paranoia, racism or misogyny are.
- vithlani 10y ago
  Sorry, how do you associate Nassem Taleb with paranoia?

tunap 10y ago

Absolutely, if you mean the Frontline documentary from 2004. Poignant more so today than when it 1st aired. I'll double check "Hidden Persuaders", though. Problem is, everyone seems to be emulating the advertizers, selling what they deem to be the best X. These social networks are conditioning people to be salespeople, IMO. I am guilty, too.

ArkyBeagle 10y ago
"The Hidden Persuaders" is a book by Vance Packard from the late 1950s. It discusses the Bernays phenomenon and how OSS propagandists went into advertising after WWII.
- tunap 10y ago
  Thanks, I'll check it out. Another great book from that era, outdated & pertinent @ same time, is Boorstin's 'The Image: A Guide To Psuedo-Events In America'.
  - ArkyBeagle 10y ago
    What a great (sub) title. Thanks!