9 ms·

One institution not mention (and given the publication, I find it a bit odd) is the local churches. It is one of the large connection points that have started

One institution not mention (and given the publication, I find it a bit odd) is the local churches. It is one of the large connection points that have started to fade. The amount of social welfare the churches supported has not been replaced.

xj9 10y ago
This is something that needs to be addressed. We are becoming more secular over time, but we aren't replacing the communities that churches create with secular equivalents, at least not on the same scale. Feeling connected is important, we really need to work on that.
- protomyth 10y ago
  I doubt we will since it would take a common belief that emphasizes charity and group togetherness. The most interesting secular meeting place is McDonalds for a lot of older people. Its cheap and you can often sit there a while, but McDonalds doesn't really have an equivalent of the local preacher.
  - jmspring 10y ago
    Or Taco Bell or whatever local cheap eatery is in the local neighborhood.
    - wallflower 10y ago
      "When many lower-income Americans feel isolated and empty, they yearn for physical social networks. All across US, this happens organically at McDonald's" https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/08/mcdonalds-community-centers-us-physical-social-networks https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/08/mcdonalds-c...
    - hueving 10y ago
      McDonald's has something particularly attractive about it to older folks though. Might be nostalgia since it was the first big fast food thing, or maybe it's just cheap coffee. Not sure, but the one near me always has a couple of groups of old folks chatting there at 7-10am on sundays.
- 50CNT 10y ago
  Germany has the Vereinswesen, which are small clubs around a common hobby (such as shooting, football, gymnastics, orchestra, basketball, etc.) that are usually part of a larger Verband, which may be state or country-wide like the DFB (German Football Federation), the DBB (German Basketball Federation), DSB (German Shooting and Archery Federation), or the BDMV (Association of German Music Societies). That could be a model.
  - ptaipale 10y ago
    And it is in many countries, but for some reason the U.S. doesn't seem to work that way. I was a bit surprised when my son spent a year in high school in the U.S. and I found out how youth football (soccer) system works there. Over here in Europe, we have a plethora of local clubs that collect the young and old to train and play, and to work together to organise everything, fund it, and so on. In the U.S. the football (again, soccer) seems to be predominantly organised by schools, and a very small part of players belong to actual soccer clubs. I understand the same is true with other sports (American football, baseball, basketball, etc). Similarly we have lots of clubs that arrange things like music and orchestra trainings for youth, whereas in the U.S. this is also organized around schools. This is good in many ways - for instance, the integration of activities to the school day helps it for kids - but at the same time, it makes the school's "quality" (in terms of what the teachers and staff are like and what kind of parents the children have) all so important. If the school fails, then everything will. And if you don't have kids at school, can you really contribute to the community in the same way as a seasoned football veteran can in a local club?
    - flamedoge 10y ago
      meetup.com seems to be alive in every city....
      - elcapitan 10y ago
        How is the target audience for Meetup elsewhere? I live in Berlin and I noticed that it's almost exclusively developers (which is fun, but sometimes weird - I went to a street cycling meetup and everybody else was a dev too). Maybe the dominance of German clubs in organized leisure is the reason for that.
- bufordsharkley 10y ago
  I work at a community radio station, and I definitely see this as filling the void in my life that a community church serves for others (and for us, music is quite literally a religion). I wonder how many people can answer yes to the questions: 1. Do you believe there is something out there bigger than yourself? 2. Do you interface with others in your community, connected in some fashion to this Greater Power? I feel lucky to have this community radio, I wonder what other examples people have out there.
- ThrustVectoring 10y ago
  That's a large part of why I'm into social dancing.
  - hueving 10y ago
    Is there such a thing as anti-social dancing?
    - PhasmaFelis 10y ago
      Dancing alone in your living room, I suppose.
    - Legogris 10y ago
      Ever been to a psytrance rave? Lots of people are go there with minimum social interaction and are there purely for dancing to the music in their on bubble.
      - xor-xor 10y ago
        > Ever been to a psytrance rave? [...] ...or silent disco. BTW, there's a great movie "Lobster" [1], where this "anti-social dance" phenomenon is hilariously portrayed in one of the scenes. Highly recommended. [1] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3464902/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3464902/
    - ThrustVectoring 10y ago
      "Social" refers to the fact that it's more about experiencing a dance, rather than performing to an audience. Lindy hop, swing, blues, contra, and contact improv would all count here. Ballet, breakdancing, mime, and tap would not.
- f_allwein 10y ago
  In the UK, there is Sunday Assembly, a secular community that otherwise resembles church: https://www.sundayassembly.com https://www.sundayassembly.com
  - mercer 10y ago
    My experience with the Sunday Assembly in my area was that it was really nice, but a pale comparison of the church life I had experienced. I wish I knew what the missing element was, but I'm afraid a big part of it is the opt-in nature. It's like the difference between a good family and a good group of friends. The former is held together not just based on a desire to be together, but (usually) also on a sense of obligation/duty or even deeply held belief.
    - f_allwein 10y ago
      Good point - I've been planning to go again for a while, but never do...
AndrewKemendo 10y ago
Yes, this is a great point that I bring up frequently. Even though I don't participate in churches I do think there is a real value in the communities they create. The challenge is, is it possible to create such a community without it being around something like a religion or cult? Sports (either watching or doing) are the closest thing I can think of but that takes a certain type of personality.
- colanderman 10y ago
  Universal Unitarianism is pretty close to this. It is non-creedal (you don't have to believe in anything) and very community-oriented.
  - PhasmaFelis 10y ago
    That's Unitarian Universalism, for the benefit of anyone trying to Google it. :) But yeah, UU seems like a really solid substitute for the traditional religious community. Shame it isn't more popular.
    - mirimir 10y ago
      They meet on Sundays to hear presentations from each other :)
    - Noos 10y ago
      Not a substitute at all. It would be like getting rid of football, but still wanting people to go to stadiums for the sake of going to stadiums. Football was the reason they went. The religions bind mostly due to the doctrine of the religion, not the activities of it. UU has no real doctrines and no binding point. Without that doctrine motivating you to do the activities, people just stop or don't bother. This is why secular attempts will mostly fail, because the doctrines they do have tend to be extremely narrow and non-universal, i.e. knowledge worker-style atheism.
      - PhasmaFelis 10y ago
daksatech 10y ago
More importantly the institution of family.
cLeEOGPw 10y ago
You see, churches are most likely to be visited by white people, who are priviliged by definition. That's why only mosques are mentioned - refugees are one of the groups that actually suffers from loneliness. Not some rich white males. Even if some white males sufer from loneliness, we still shouldn't help them, because on average white males still are better off than muslim refugees for example. That is also the reason we need more mosques and more welfare for refugees and more taxes for white people - to lessen the impact and privilige.
- dang 10y ago
  Please stop posting inflammatory ideological comments to Hacker News. That is not what this site is for.

xj9 10y ago

This is something that needs to be addressed. We are becoming more secular over time, but we aren't replacing the communities that churches create with secular equivalents, at least not on the same scale. Feeling connected is important, we really need to work on that.

protomyth 10y ago
I doubt we will since it would take a common belief that emphasizes charity and group togetherness. The most interesting secular meeting place is McDonalds for a lot of older people. Its cheap and you can often sit there a while, but McDonalds doesn't really have an equivalent of the local preacher.
- jmspring 10y ago
  Or Taco Bell or whatever local cheap eatery is in the local neighborhood.
  - wallflower 10y ago
    "When many lower-income Americans feel isolated and empty, they yearn for physical social networks. All across US, this happens organically at McDonald's" https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/08/mcdonalds-community-centers-us-physical-social-networks https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/08/mcdonalds-c...
  - hueving 10y ago
    McDonald's has something particularly attractive about it to older folks though. Might be nostalgia since it was the first big fast food thing, or maybe it's just cheap coffee. Not sure, but the one near me always has a couple of groups of old folks chatting there at 7-10am on sundays.
50CNT 10y ago
Germany has the Vereinswesen, which are small clubs around a common hobby (such as shooting, football, gymnastics, orchestra, basketball, etc.) that are usually part of a larger Verband, which may be state or country-wide like the DFB (German Football Federation), the DBB (German Basketball Federation), DSB (German Shooting and Archery Federation), or the BDMV (Association of German Music Societies). That could be a model.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  And it is in many countries, but for some reason the U.S. doesn't seem to work that way. I was a bit surprised when my son spent a year in high school in the U.S. and I found out how youth football (soccer) system works there. Over here in Europe, we have a plethora of local clubs that collect the young and old to train and play, and to work together to organise everything, fund it, and so on. In the U.S. the football (again, soccer) seems to be predominantly organised by schools, and a very small part of players belong to actual soccer clubs. I understand the same is true with other sports (American football, baseball, basketball, etc). Similarly we have lots of clubs that arrange things like music and orchestra trainings for youth, whereas in the U.S. this is also organized around schools. This is good in many ways - for instance, the integration of activities to the school day helps it for kids - but at the same time, it makes the school's "quality" (in terms of what the teachers and staff are like and what kind of parents the children have) all so important. If the school fails, then everything will. And if you don't have kids at school, can you really contribute to the community in the same way as a seasoned football veteran can in a local club?
  - flamedoge 10y ago
    meetup.com seems to be alive in every city....
    - elcapitan 10y ago
      How is the target audience for Meetup elsewhere? I live in Berlin and I noticed that it's almost exclusively developers (which is fun, but sometimes weird - I went to a street cycling meetup and everybody else was a dev too). Maybe the dominance of German clubs in organized leisure is the reason for that.
bufordsharkley 10y ago
I work at a community radio station, and I definitely see this as filling the void in my life that a community church serves for others (and for us, music is quite literally a religion). I wonder how many people can answer yes to the questions: 1. Do you believe there is something out there bigger than yourself? 2. Do you interface with others in your community, connected in some fashion to this Greater Power? I feel lucky to have this community radio, I wonder what other examples people have out there.
ThrustVectoring 10y ago
That's a large part of why I'm into social dancing.
- hueving 10y ago
  Is there such a thing as anti-social dancing?
  - PhasmaFelis 10y ago
    Dancing alone in your living room, I suppose.
  - Legogris 10y ago
    Ever been to a psytrance rave? Lots of people are go there with minimum social interaction and are there purely for dancing to the music in their on bubble.
    - xor-xor 10y ago
      > Ever been to a psytrance rave? [...] ...or silent disco. BTW, there's a great movie "Lobster" [1], where this "anti-social dance" phenomenon is hilariously portrayed in one of the scenes. Highly recommended. [1] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3464902/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3464902/
  - ThrustVectoring 10y ago
    "Social" refers to the fact that it's more about experiencing a dance, rather than performing to an audience. Lindy hop, swing, blues, contra, and contact improv would all count here. Ballet, breakdancing, mime, and tap would not.
f_allwein 10y ago
In the UK, there is Sunday Assembly, a secular community that otherwise resembles church: https://www.sundayassembly.com https://www.sundayassembly.com
- mercer 10y ago
  My experience with the Sunday Assembly in my area was that it was really nice, but a pale comparison of the church life I had experienced. I wish I knew what the missing element was, but I'm afraid a big part of it is the opt-in nature. It's like the difference between a good family and a good group of friends. The former is held together not just based on a desire to be together, but (usually) also on a sense of obligation/duty or even deeply held belief.
  - f_allwein 10y ago
    Good point - I've been planning to go again for a while, but never do...

AndrewKemendo 10y ago

Yes, this is a great point that I bring up frequently. Even though I don't participate in churches I do think there is a real value in the communities they create. The challenge is, is it possible to create such a community without it being around something like a religion or cult? Sports (either watching or doing) are the closest thing I can think of but that takes a certain type of personality.

colanderman 10y ago
Universal Unitarianism is pretty close to this. It is non-creedal (you don't have to believe in anything) and very community-oriented.
- PhasmaFelis 10y ago
  That's Unitarian Universalism, for the benefit of anyone trying to Google it. :) But yeah, UU seems like a really solid substitute for the traditional religious community. Shame it isn't more popular.
  - mirimir 10y ago
    They meet on Sundays to hear presentations from each other :)
  - Noos 10y ago
    Not a substitute at all. It would be like getting rid of football, but still wanting people to go to stadiums for the sake of going to stadiums. Football was the reason they went. The religions bind mostly due to the doctrine of the religion, not the activities of it. UU has no real doctrines and no binding point. Without that doctrine motivating you to do the activities, people just stop or don't bother. This is why secular attempts will mostly fail, because the doctrines they do have tend to be extremely narrow and non-universal, i.e. knowledge worker-style atheism.
    - PhasmaFelis 10y ago

daksatech 10y ago

More importantly the institution of family.

cLeEOGPw 10y ago

You see, churches are most likely to be visited by white people, who are priviliged by definition. That's why only mosques are mentioned - refugees are one of the groups that actually suffers from loneliness. Not some rich white males. Even if some white males sufer from loneliness, we still shouldn't help them, because on average white males still are better off than muslim refugees for example. That is also the reason we need more mosques and more welfare for refugees and more taxes for white people - to lessen the impact and privilige.

dang 10y ago
Please stop posting inflammatory ideological comments to Hacker News. That is not what this site is for.