7 ms·

A New Way for the Wealthy to Shop for Citizenships

61 points by lebek 10y ago

Brandanna 10y ago
Yeah, passports.io does a better job than this firm. I incorporated in Seychelles, have citizenship in antigua. All thanks to them. Remember, kids: tax evasion is illegal. Tax avoidance is discouraged.
- lucaspiller 10y ago
  Where do you usually reside? First of all you've got issues with visas, but also in a lot of countries you automatically become a tax resident after staying there for more than ~180 days per year (as in most EU countries).
  - Brandanna 10y ago
    You might want to google "perpetual tourism" or "digital nomad". It'll explain it better than i ever could.
emptybits 10y ago
Referenced but not linked by the article: https://www.nationalityindex.com https://www.nationalityindex.com
Cyph0n 10y ago
I feel that it's a much more interesting comparison. Other rankings simply compare the number of countries your passport can enter visa-free, which obviously ignores many factors. I'm lucky enough to hold three citizenships (no I'm not rich), so I have no trouble entering most countries. I just wish one of them was from the EU... it would make working there much easier.
liamcardenas 10y ago
> The U.S. ranks twenty-eighth on the Q.N.I., behind nearly every E.U. country. Kalin told me that the U.S.’s rank is partly due to its restrictive immigration policy, and partly because “there are so many weapons, and a high incarceration rate.” Why does the fact that there are "so many weapons, and a high incarceration rate" make the US a bad place to live for millionaires? There is a lot of subjectivity here. If you want to live in America, then an American citizenship is the most important one to have. However, if you want to live abroad, an American citizenship is terrible because you still have to pay income tax no matter where in the world you are. (I do like measuring travel freedom though!)
- Spooky23 10y ago
  There are people these days that have a fear of traveling outside of major US metropolitan areas because of issues like this. They are feeding into that fear that a traveler would have.
  - dbcurtis 10y ago
    Now that is complete irrational. The major metropolitan areas are far less safe. And in fact, the more gun control, the less safe.
    - dmoy 10y ago
      Idk, my wife has no fear of getting shot in China, because there's no guns at all. Also the murder rate is like 5x lower.
      - hugh4 10y ago
        > my wife has no fear of getting shot in China As long as she doesn't say anything nice about democracy or anything. Have we really forgotten the Tiananmen Square Massacre so quickly?
        dmoy 10y ago
        Sure I should preface that - she has no fear of getting shot by random citizens. The 6/4 issue is a separate thing. In fact many in her generation are unaware that it happened. First time I made a reference, she wouldn't believe me for like a week. But still, the salient point is that there exist governments with no gun control and minimal gun murders, high gun control and minimal gun murders, as well as low gun control and low murders, and low gun control and high murders. I think any statement of causality needs some massive citation there...
    - throwawaysocks 10y ago
      > The major metropolitan areas are far less safe That mostly depends on who you are and what you're doing. I've felt scared in cities more often than I've felt scared in rural areas, but the most objectively dangerous situations I've ever been in have all occurred in rural and suburban areas. E.g., it's far easier for someone unfamiliar with an area to avoid "the bad part of town" in urban areas than in rural areas. And suburbs are way more tricky than rural areas in this respect. > And in fact, the more gun control, the less safe Anyone claiming -- explicitly or otherwise -- that there's a clear-cut causal relationship here is disingenuous, completely new to the US gun control debate, or blinded by prior belief.
projectramo 10y ago
1. I wish they had published their list 2. The simple metric that might help us understand the value of the list: access to high paying jobs 3. From #2, you can derive other properties as corollaries (freedom to travel, settle Etc)
- y4mi 10y ago
  they did publish it. emptybits posted a link to their index https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11886215 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11886215
owenversteeg 10y ago
Firstly, I think this is a fascinating subject that isn't discussed on HN enough. A lot of friends of mine have multiple citizenships, so this is an interesting subject for me personally. I know two people with dual Russian-US nationalities, which they both loudly proclaim to be the best. I also know a number of people with dual European-US citizenships, and a handful of people who have a smaller non-EU country and a US citizenship. I also know some people who only have just one smaller non-EU country's citizenship. I've personally had the discussion several times about what the best citizenships to hold are. Some people I know are wealthy enough that they could simply afford to purchase additional citizenships; some are undocumented in their country of residence and holding even dual citizenship is only a dream. I'm personally of the opinion that there are a few "classes" of passports: European, American, Russian, South American, and everyone else. Russian, because it allows you free travel between the former Soviet states; European and American for obvious reasons, and South American because most South American countries permit free travel with citizenship. Less commonly known passports I have special love for are the Chilean passport and the Dutch passport (which I have). The Dutch passport because it is very difficult to obtain (and requires you to give up all other citizenships unless obtained by birth), and the Chilean one because it is the only passport to allow free travel to all G8 countries. It's also interesting to watch how the Syrian passport fell from "medium quality", relatively close to high quality, to the fourth worst passport ranked. In the same time, only a few countries fell positions: El Salvador went from high quality to medium quality, and the Congo went from medium to low quality. For those in the thread asking for a copy of the 2016 report: https://www.henleyglobal.com/files/download/HP/hvri/HP%20Visa%20Restrictions%20Index%20160223.pdf https://www.henleyglobal.com/files/download/HP/hvri/HP%20Vis...
- eru 10y ago
  Doesn't an American passport make you liable to American taxes worldwide? (I guess, if you are rich enough, your accountants can deal with that..)
  - owenversteeg 10y ago
    Yes, unfortunately the US is one of the few countries to do anything like this. Thankfully, you can exclude up to around $90k of earned income per year from taxes, and there are programs in place to give tax credits when you go over this limit and pay double taxes. Of course, you end up paying more, but it's not usually double.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

61 points by lebek 10y ago

Yeah, passports.io does a better job than this firm. I incorporated in Seychelles, have citizenship in antigua. All thanks to them. Remember, kids: tax evasion is illegal. Tax avoidance is discouraged.

lucaspiller 10y ago
Where do you usually reside? First of all you've got issues with visas, but also in a lot of countries you automatically become a tax resident after staying there for more than ~180 days per year (as in most EU countries).
- Brandanna 10y ago
  You might want to google "perpetual tourism" or "digital nomad". It'll explain it better than i ever could.

emptybits 10y ago

Referenced but not linked by the article: https://www.nationalityindex.com https://www.nationalityindex.com

Cyph0n 10y ago

I feel that it's a much more interesting comparison. Other rankings simply compare the number of countries your passport can enter visa-free, which obviously ignores many factors. I'm lucky enough to hold three citizenships (no I'm not rich), so I have no trouble entering most countries. I just wish one of them was from the EU... it would make working there much easier.

liamcardenas 10y ago

> The U.S. ranks twenty-eighth on the Q.N.I., behind nearly every E.U. country. Kalin told me that the U.S.’s rank is partly due to its restrictive immigration policy, and partly because “there are so many weapons, and a high incarceration rate.” Why does the fact that there are "so many weapons, and a high incarceration rate" make the US a bad place to live for millionaires? There is a lot of subjectivity here. If you want to live in America, then an American citizenship is the most important one to have. However, if you want to live abroad, an American citizenship is terrible because you still have to pay income tax no matter where in the world you are. (I do like measuring travel freedom though!)

Spooky23 10y ago
There are people these days that have a fear of traveling outside of major US metropolitan areas because of issues like this. They are feeding into that fear that a traveler would have.
- dbcurtis 10y ago
  Now that is complete irrational. The major metropolitan areas are far less safe. And in fact, the more gun control, the less safe.
  - dmoy 10y ago
    Idk, my wife has no fear of getting shot in China, because there's no guns at all. Also the murder rate is like 5x lower.
    - hugh4 10y ago
      > my wife has no fear of getting shot in China As long as she doesn't say anything nice about democracy or anything. Have we really forgotten the Tiananmen Square Massacre so quickly?
      - dmoy 10y ago
        Sure I should preface that - she has no fear of getting shot by random citizens. The 6/4 issue is a separate thing. In fact many in her generation are unaware that it happened. First time I made a reference, she wouldn't believe me for like a week. But still, the salient point is that there exist governments with no gun control and minimal gun murders, high gun control and minimal gun murders, as well as low gun control and low murders, and low gun control and high murders. I think any statement of causality needs some massive citation there...
  - throwawaysocks 10y ago
    > The major metropolitan areas are far less safe That mostly depends on who you are and what you're doing. I've felt scared in cities more often than I've felt scared in rural areas, but the most objectively dangerous situations I've ever been in have all occurred in rural and suburban areas. E.g., it's far easier for someone unfamiliar with an area to avoid "the bad part of town" in urban areas than in rural areas. And suburbs are way more tricky than rural areas in this respect. > And in fact, the more gun control, the less safe Anyone claiming -- explicitly or otherwise -- that there's a clear-cut causal relationship here is disingenuous, completely new to the US gun control debate, or blinded by prior belief.

projectramo 10y ago

1. I wish they had published their list 2. The simple metric that might help us understand the value of the list: access to high paying jobs 3. From #2, you can derive other properties as corollaries (freedom to travel, settle Etc)

y4mi 10y ago
they did publish it. emptybits posted a link to their index https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11886215 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11886215

owenversteeg 10y ago

Firstly, I think this is a fascinating subject that isn't discussed on HN enough. A lot of friends of mine have multiple citizenships, so this is an interesting subject for me personally. I know two people with dual Russian-US nationalities, which they both loudly proclaim to be the best. I also know a number of people with dual European-US citizenships, and a handful of people who have a smaller non-EU country and a US citizenship. I also know some people who only have just one smaller non-EU country's citizenship. I've personally had the discussion several times about what the best citizenships to hold are. Some people I know are wealthy enough that they could simply afford to purchase additional citizenships; some are undocumented in their country of residence and holding even dual citizenship is only a dream. I'm personally of the opinion that there are a few "classes" of passports: European, American, Russian, South American, and everyone else. Russian, because it allows you free travel between the former Soviet states; European and American for obvious reasons, and South American because most South American countries permit free travel with citizenship. Less commonly known passports I have special love for are the Chilean passport and the Dutch passport (which I have). The Dutch passport because it is very difficult to obtain (and requires you to give up all other citizenships unless obtained by birth), and the Chilean one because it is the only passport to allow free travel to all G8 countries. It's also interesting to watch how the Syrian passport fell from "medium quality", relatively close to high quality, to the fourth worst passport ranked. In the same time, only a few countries fell positions: El Salvador went from high quality to medium quality, and the Congo went from medium to low quality. For those in the thread asking for a copy of the 2016 report: https://www.henleyglobal.com/files/download/HP/hvri/HP%20Visa%20Restrictions%20Index%20160223.pdf https://www.henleyglobal.com/files/download/HP/hvri/HP%20Vis...

eru 10y ago
Doesn't an American passport make you liable to American taxes worldwide? (I guess, if you are rich enough, your accountants can deal with that..)
- owenversteeg 10y ago
  Yes, unfortunately the US is one of the few countries to do anything like this. Thankfully, you can exclude up to around $90k of earned income per year from taxes, and there are programs in place to give tax credits when you go over this limit and pay double taxes. Of course, you end up paying more, but it's not usually double.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]