6 ms·

Every time one of these articles appears it seems like the comments always mention prop 13, rent control, NIMBY and environmental regulations, and a difficult p

Every time one of these articles appears it seems like the comments always mention prop 13, rent control, NIMBY and environmental regulations, and a difficult permitting process as the underlying reasons for the high rents in sf. It seems pretty obvious that if the market had its way the whole area would look like Tokyo. Why can't we move beyond this and say "OK keep your 100 year old row houses and vineyards", lets continue to decentralize tech and create a world where moving to sf is not required to work in a startup?

johan_larson 10y ago
Wouldn't that be nice? If SF is unreasonable, we'll just take our ball and play elsewhere. :) But how to make it happen? There is an awful lot of resistance to hiring remote staff. I checked the latest "Who's Hiring?" post here at HN and of the top 10 postings, only 2 were open to hiring remotely.
- johnwatson11218 10y ago
  yea I agree that remote is a big part of the solution. Despite all the talk about how easy it is to "work from anywhere" remote still has a lot of pain points. Where I work we can do it one day a week but it sucks when people are dialing in to a meeting. Remote Desktop and ssh aren't really that great. I'm thinking we need fiber to the curb and VR fueled telepresence that is able to convey nuance and emotion when interacting with co-workers.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - ericd 10y ago
    Yeah, it basically requires a lot of structuring the way people work together to make it so that remote workers are first class citizens in meetings etc. Otherwise, remote workers miss way too much of the context that comes from informal chatter at the office and end up being isolated from the main flow of things. We can barely even teleconference people into formal meetings in a way that works consistently and isn't a huge pain, I think we're a very long way from remote work being a solution for a large percentage of workers.
cageface 10y ago
Because despite all the talk about "disruption" tech is still surprisingly conservative. Things are changing though. I've seen a huge increase in the number of companies willing to consider remote work in the last couple of years.
funkiee 10y ago
There's something to be said for being in close proximity with a lot of other people working in the same profession. I came from working in tech for 8 years before moving to Silicon Valley and it's a world of difference. In other words, Country Music will always exist outside of Nashville, but if you make Country music, Nashville is the place to be.
- bdcravens 10y ago
  People don't move to Nashville or Hollywood to be near colleagues; they move there to "make it big". I'm sure the same is true of most who ingress into SV. At least programmers can move to pretty much any big city and find a job paying upper middle-class wages (and can do pretty good living anywhere with decent Internet working remotely)
1138 10y ago
I work remotely in SF. I live here because I like not owning a car, walking and biking most places, and non-tech things to do. I'm just lucky I can afford it. The solution is to build more good US cities that aren't car centric. I'm not aware of any. Build a from scratch city with a target of at least 250k residents on the California coast and I'll move. I don't know how many people think similarly, but there's still a lot of non-tech people in SF.
- fraserharris 10y ago
  The best way i've seen this framed is: in all of the US, there are only about 2,000 blocks of housing with sufficient density & walkable services to support car free living. This is some of the most sought after and expensive real estate in the country, but zoning codes won't allow more of it to be built. Example zoning restrictions: mandatory building setbacks, mandatory parking requirements, mandatory building separations, maximum units per building, 1 or 2 story maximum heights, high minimum lot sizes. Note: a significant % of those 2,000 blocks are in San Francisco.
  - raldi 10y ago
    This is very interesting, but I can't use it unless you have a reference I can cite. I'm also curious how many units there are in those 2000 blocks.
  - pgwhalen 10y ago
    Manhattan alone is on the order of 2000 blocks, I don't know where you came up with that figure.
    - fraserharris 10y ago
      Poorly recalling from my memory. Given that a "block" is a variable metric, the actual number is less important than the concept that it is a static. There are only ~5 cities in the US with > 1,000 of these blocks: NYC, Boston, DC, SF, Chicago (Philadelphia?, Baltimore?)* AND with a transportation network that makes car-free living possible. Developers would build more such areas if zoning allowed. * Forgive my ignorance for being from the West Coast. Even in SF its difficult to live car free if you don't live on BART or Muni Metro.
CydeWeys 10y ago
What's wrong with making San Francisco more like Tokyo? Do you know how much economic productivity is lost because zoning regulations prevent further densification that is otherwise desired?
- dleslie 10y ago
  ... And the inefficiency of delivering services to a large, low-density population; and the societal burdens of municipalities designed around automobiles as the primary mode of transportation. Air quality, sedentary lifestyles, loss of wildlands, and so on. If street construction and maintenance were paid for solely by usage...
- johnwatson11218 10y ago
  I'm not against making it look like Tokyo, I agree that it would be more productive if it were more dense. I don't live there so it isn't my problem. I do think that it limits the amount of economic growth and could hurt the national economy. I think it could also make it easier for other countries to leap frog us in terms of software but that is very speculative.
  - ZanyProgrammer 10y ago
    There's a lot of room between SF now and Tokyo. Even moderate increases in density and building housing stock. It's not a binary choice of the status quo or a dystopian nightmare.
    - CydeWeys 10y ago
      Is Tokyo a dystopian nightmare? The density offers a high quality of living while controlling expenses for all but housing (which is understandably expensive). The mass transit there is world class, and so you don't need to own a car with all of its attendant costs. You can buy cheap groceries to cook at home. The standard of living and options for things to do is better than living in the country once you account for the higher average salaries in Tokyo. I live in Manhattan and it's the same here. Rent is expensive (but not horribly so if you have roommates or an SO). Everything else is reasonable.
raldi 10y ago
The city wouldn't have to look like Tokyo; we could end the housing crisis by increasing the supply by 30%, and we could do that by replacing just 6% of the city's single-family houses with six-story apartment buildings. The other 94% could be left alone, as could every other parcel in the city, and nothing over six stories would be necessary. http://tinyurl.com/6storySF http://tinyurl.com/6storySF

johan_larson 10y ago

Wouldn't that be nice? If SF is unreasonable, we'll just take our ball and play elsewhere. :) But how to make it happen? There is an awful lot of resistance to hiring remote staff. I checked the latest "Who's Hiring?" post here at HN and of the top 10 postings, only 2 were open to hiring remotely.

johnwatson11218 10y ago
yea I agree that remote is a big part of the solution. Despite all the talk about how easy it is to "work from anywhere" remote still has a lot of pain points. Where I work we can do it one day a week but it sucks when people are dialing in to a meeting. Remote Desktop and ssh aren't really that great. I'm thinking we need fiber to the curb and VR fueled telepresence that is able to convey nuance and emotion when interacting with co-workers.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- ericd 10y ago
  Yeah, it basically requires a lot of structuring the way people work together to make it so that remote workers are first class citizens in meetings etc. Otherwise, remote workers miss way too much of the context that comes from informal chatter at the office and end up being isolated from the main flow of things. We can barely even teleconference people into formal meetings in a way that works consistently and isn't a huge pain, I think we're a very long way from remote work being a solution for a large percentage of workers.

cageface 10y ago

Because despite all the talk about "disruption" tech is still surprisingly conservative. Things are changing though. I've seen a huge increase in the number of companies willing to consider remote work in the last couple of years.

funkiee 10y ago

There's something to be said for being in close proximity with a lot of other people working in the same profession. I came from working in tech for 8 years before moving to Silicon Valley and it's a world of difference. In other words, Country Music will always exist outside of Nashville, but if you make Country music, Nashville is the place to be.

bdcravens 10y ago
People don't move to Nashville or Hollywood to be near colleagues; they move there to "make it big". I'm sure the same is true of most who ingress into SV. At least programmers can move to pretty much any big city and find a job paying upper middle-class wages (and can do pretty good living anywhere with decent Internet working remotely)

1138 10y ago

I work remotely in SF. I live here because I like not owning a car, walking and biking most places, and non-tech things to do. I'm just lucky I can afford it. The solution is to build more good US cities that aren't car centric. I'm not aware of any. Build a from scratch city with a target of at least 250k residents on the California coast and I'll move. I don't know how many people think similarly, but there's still a lot of non-tech people in SF.

fraserharris 10y ago
The best way i've seen this framed is: in all of the US, there are only about 2,000 blocks of housing with sufficient density & walkable services to support car free living. This is some of the most sought after and expensive real estate in the country, but zoning codes won't allow more of it to be built. Example zoning restrictions: mandatory building setbacks, mandatory parking requirements, mandatory building separations, maximum units per building, 1 or 2 story maximum heights, high minimum lot sizes. Note: a significant % of those 2,000 blocks are in San Francisco.
- raldi 10y ago
  This is very interesting, but I can't use it unless you have a reference I can cite. I'm also curious how many units there are in those 2000 blocks.
- pgwhalen 10y ago
  Manhattan alone is on the order of 2000 blocks, I don't know where you came up with that figure.
  - fraserharris 10y ago
    Poorly recalling from my memory. Given that a "block" is a variable metric, the actual number is less important than the concept that it is a static. There are only ~5 cities in the US with > 1,000 of these blocks: NYC, Boston, DC, SF, Chicago (Philadelphia?, Baltimore?)* AND with a transportation network that makes car-free living possible. Developers would build more such areas if zoning allowed. * Forgive my ignorance for being from the West Coast. Even in SF its difficult to live car free if you don't live on BART or Muni Metro.

CydeWeys 10y ago

What's wrong with making San Francisco more like Tokyo? Do you know how much economic productivity is lost because zoning regulations prevent further densification that is otherwise desired?

dleslie 10y ago
... And the inefficiency of delivering services to a large, low-density population; and the societal burdens of municipalities designed around automobiles as the primary mode of transportation. Air quality, sedentary lifestyles, loss of wildlands, and so on. If street construction and maintenance were paid for solely by usage...
johnwatson11218 10y ago
I'm not against making it look like Tokyo, I agree that it would be more productive if it were more dense. I don't live there so it isn't my problem. I do think that it limits the amount of economic growth and could hurt the national economy. I think it could also make it easier for other countries to leap frog us in terms of software but that is very speculative.
- ZanyProgrammer 10y ago
  There's a lot of room between SF now and Tokyo. Even moderate increases in density and building housing stock. It's not a binary choice of the status quo or a dystopian nightmare.
  - CydeWeys 10y ago
    Is Tokyo a dystopian nightmare? The density offers a high quality of living while controlling expenses for all but housing (which is understandably expensive). The mass transit there is world class, and so you don't need to own a car with all of its attendant costs. You can buy cheap groceries to cook at home. The standard of living and options for things to do is better than living in the country once you account for the higher average salaries in Tokyo. I live in Manhattan and it's the same here. Rent is expensive (but not horribly so if you have roommates or an SO). Everything else is reasonable.

raldi 10y ago

The city wouldn't have to look like Tokyo; we could end the housing crisis by increasing the supply by 30%, and we could do that by replacing just 6% of the city's single-family houses with six-story apartment buildings. The other 94% could be left alone, as could every other parcel in the city, and nothing over six stories would be necessary. http://tinyurl.com/6storySF http://tinyurl.com/6storySF