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What we're missing here (and in all of the Toyota articles I've seen recently) is a comparison to the number of 'sudden acceleration' incidents reported in non-

by minus1 17y ago

What we're missing here (and in all of the Toyota articles I've seen recently) is a comparison to the number of 'sudden acceleration' incidents reported in non-Toyota vehicles. If this is simply elderly-operator error, I would expect the Lincoln Town Car to have a far worse record.

sliverstorm 17y ago
if it's operator error based, with the driver thinking they hit the brake when they really hit the gas... footwell space and pedal size and spacing- ergonomics, basically- would be very important. It's plausible Toyota's pedal layout is simply a little more vulnerable to this kind of mistake. (not a lot, cause it's still a limited occurrence, but a bit)
- jacquesm 17y ago
  I doubt it, there is substantial evidence by now to rule that out, some very experienced drivers have had this happen to them. Software glitch seems to be a good candidate.
  - yummyfajitas 17y ago
    A person with 50 years of driving experience is probably not a good driver.
    - jacquesm 17y ago
      Did I mention 50 years ? I was thinking of people like the woz and the guy that had his accident last week. Both of them did not struck me as either elderly or infirm.
  - vannevar 17y ago
    Two anecdotal reports do not constitute 'substantial evidence.' I'm particularly skeptical about the incident last week, which could very well have been staged in the hopes of a big settlement. No one inside or outside of Toyota has been able to reproduce the alleged defect under controlled conditions, despite the great potential reward for doing so. On the other hand, incompetent, greedy, and crazy drivers are very common. Given a simple explanation (human incompetence/greed) and a complex one (a serious mechanical flaw that cannot be reproduced and displays a bias toward the elderly), we should prefer the simpler explanation. (Update on new questions surrounding last week's Prius incident: http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2010/03/questions-raised-on-toyota-prius-sudden-acceleration-cases-san-diego-new-york.html http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2010/03/questions-rais...).
    - jacquesm 17y ago
      It's possible that the American 'sue happy' culture will create it's own incidents but from the amount of government involvement and the numerous recalls and 'fixes' it would seem to me that there really is some kind of issue. What I don't get though, is that given the number of Toyotas of just about every model in service that there aren't more incidents like this. You'd say that on a given day there ought to be several malfunctions if it is a systemic error. It would have to be a fairly rare set of conditions satisfied at the same time to bring about the bug, and I find it hard to believe that Toyota devs would not be able to come up with a bunch of scenarios after looking at their system with a magnifying glass (which I don't doubt they've been doing) that might trigger the issue until they found it. Personally I'd have absolutely no problem in buying / driving any model Toyota, even knowing this, but I've always been wary of drive-by-wire systems and I like to figure out how to force a car to a stop. I've owned a Honda Civic hybrid and one of the first things I did when I learned the throttle was automatic was figure out how strong the handbrake was, and what happens when you try to force the shifter in to 'N' while at speed. (be very careful not to push it one step too far :) ). The main issue is that if the electrical system on one of these would go haywire that the torque the electric motor can put out is way stronger than what you can overcome with the brakes. The article suggests the brakes are 'electrical', that's only partially true, the brakes are 'regenerative', but there is a back-up disc system as well. Just like any electro-mechanical industrial machine a car that has this kind of control should probably come with an 'abort' switch that shuts down the power to the engine. That in itself is also not without issues because that means your power steering goes instantly to '0' and it can be surprisingly hard to steer a car that has not been designed for manual control. On the highway that is a doable trick, at lower speeds it is more than most people (especially the ladies) can handle.
travisp 17y ago
Except that the reporting about the incidents in Toyota may worsen it (e.g. the car starts accelerating when the accelerator is hit by accident, the person remembers the news stories about Toyota accelerators, and flips out and loses all rational thought). This is partly why in the 80s the incidents were more common in Audis.
- minus1 17y ago
  I agree. I should clarify that the data reviewed should be limited to before the story broke.

by minus1 17y ago

sliverstorm 17y ago

if it's operator error based, with the driver thinking they hit the brake when they really hit the gas... footwell space and pedal size and spacing- ergonomics, basically- would be very important. It's plausible Toyota's pedal layout is simply a little more vulnerable to this kind of mistake. (not a lot, cause it's still a limited occurrence, but a bit)

jacquesm 17y ago
I doubt it, there is substantial evidence by now to rule that out, some very experienced drivers have had this happen to them. Software glitch seems to be a good candidate.
- yummyfajitas 17y ago
  A person with 50 years of driving experience is probably not a good driver.
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    Did I mention 50 years ? I was thinking of people like the woz and the guy that had his accident last week. Both of them did not struck me as either elderly or infirm.
- vannevar 17y ago
  Two anecdotal reports do not constitute 'substantial evidence.' I'm particularly skeptical about the incident last week, which could very well have been staged in the hopes of a big settlement. No one inside or outside of Toyota has been able to reproduce the alleged defect under controlled conditions, despite the great potential reward for doing so. On the other hand, incompetent, greedy, and crazy drivers are very common. Given a simple explanation (human incompetence/greed) and a complex one (a serious mechanical flaw that cannot be reproduced and displays a bias toward the elderly), we should prefer the simpler explanation. (Update on new questions surrounding last week's Prius incident: http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2010/03/questions-raised-on-toyota-prius-sudden-acceleration-cases-san-diego-new-york.html http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2010/03/questions-rais...).
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    It's possible that the American 'sue happy' culture will create it's own incidents but from the amount of government involvement and the numerous recalls and 'fixes' it would seem to me that there really is some kind of issue. What I don't get though, is that given the number of Toyotas of just about every model in service that there aren't more incidents like this. You'd say that on a given day there ought to be several malfunctions if it is a systemic error. It would have to be a fairly rare set of conditions satisfied at the same time to bring about the bug, and I find it hard to believe that Toyota devs would not be able to come up with a bunch of scenarios after looking at their system with a magnifying glass (which I don't doubt they've been doing) that might trigger the issue until they found it. Personally I'd have absolutely no problem in buying / driving any model Toyota, even knowing this, but I've always been wary of drive-by-wire systems and I like to figure out how to force a car to a stop. I've owned a Honda Civic hybrid and one of the first things I did when I learned the throttle was automatic was figure out how strong the handbrake was, and what happens when you try to force the shifter in to 'N' while at speed. (be very careful not to push it one step too far :) ). The main issue is that if the electrical system on one of these would go haywire that the torque the electric motor can put out is way stronger than what you can overcome with the brakes. The article suggests the brakes are 'electrical', that's only partially true, the brakes are 'regenerative', but there is a back-up disc system as well. Just like any electro-mechanical industrial machine a car that has this kind of control should probably come with an 'abort' switch that shuts down the power to the engine. That in itself is also not without issues because that means your power steering goes instantly to '0' and it can be surprisingly hard to steer a car that has not been designed for manual control. On the highway that is a doable trick, at lower speeds it is more than most people (especially the ladies) can handle.

travisp 17y ago

Except that the reporting about the incidents in Toyota may worsen it (e.g. the car starts accelerating when the accelerator is hit by accident, the person remembers the news stories about Toyota accelerators, and flips out and loses all rational thought). This is partly why in the 80s the incidents were more common in Audis.

minus1 17y ago
I agree. I should clarify that the data reviewed should be limited to before the story broke.