6 ms·

Does it bother anyone else that whenever someone comes up with a strange or weird, non-mainstream idea, their mental health is immediately called into question?

Does it bother anyone else that whenever someone comes up with a strange or weird, non-mainstream idea, their mental health is immediately called into question? Just out and out say it: you're bigoted against the strange idea that this person is presenting. Just because people don't live like you do, doesn't mean they are mentally ill. Seriously, this "oh, mental illness" trope is really a drag. Please, whenever you consider "oh, mental illness" as a way of writing off someones opinion, check yourself. Not everybody agrees with the ideals proposed by the mental-health cult that currently has the West in its grip ..

spatulon 10y ago
The idea being presented is obviously nonsense. I don't mention their mental health as an attempt to discredit their idea; the idea itself is not credible enough to be worth arguing about. It's not the idea that made me question their mental health. It's the sheer incoherency of their presentation, e.g. on their website (http://legalnamefraud.com/ http://legalnamefraud.com/). The style strikes me as the written equivalent of a schizophrenic person standing on a street corner shouting inanities at passersby. You wouldn't want to have a shouting match with that person on the street and draw a crowd around them, and I don't think we should do the same here.
- fit2rule 10y ago
  I'm not at all defending these peoples opinions - just pointing out the unwarranted hatred they attract as a result of having an idea that is not mainstream/not supported by establishment politics. The speed and ease with which someones' mental health is called into question is just as alarming and .. frankly .. disturbing, as the idea that we are not subjects of the States in which we dwell. "That person is mentally ill" is the clarion call of establishment doublethink, and I put anyone who uses it as a means of justifying their bigotry against anti-establishment thought in the same bin as the loonies who think they can change their name to get out of a parking ticket .. Alas, its quite acceptable behaviour to call into question someones mental health if they propose an idea non-mainstream/aligned with establishment ideals. I think this, in itself, is a more destructive social response which, unfortunately, doesn't require expensive billboards to propagate throughout society ..
  - Frondo 10y ago
    It's not establishment double-think, and that claim itself is rather silly. I'm quite sympathetic to claims that we're too quick to dismiss people with mental illness, but when it comes to people living their lives in harmful ways based on delusions (which is common in the sovereign citizen movement), I'm all in for calling it mental illness, or something like that. People can believe whatever nutty things they want, I say, but once they put themselves (or loved ones, or whatever) in harm's way based on those beliefs, and don't change them when consequently harmed, well, what else do you want to call it? Delusional stupidity?
    - fit2rule 10y ago
      Can you think of any other marginalized folks whose ideas you don't like who might be considered valid targets for your "mentally ill" label, and therefore not worthy of any further attention? Might these folks be minorities, or under-represented segments of society, who nevertheless have as much of a right to their opinion as you do? There is nothing here that demonstrates these people are harming themselves. Do you have such evidence? In a free society, people are free to be stupid and live their lives according to how they see it. People are free to interpret the law, personally and socially, however they wish. This doesn't mean they need to be classified as "ill" by all and sundry, for the sake of a few differences of opinion. Or .. does it? You know who else was good at calling 'unsavory elements' mentally ill for the sake of social isolation? Stalin.
      - Frondo 10y ago
        What? The sovereign citizen movement is full of people who get arrested, imprisoned, get their stuff impounded. I don't think you really have any idea who you're trying to defend as "differently normal" here. This is a movement that tells its adherents, "repeat these legal incantations, and you get out of speeding tickets or paying property taxes". And its adherents actually try that nonsense out, and invariably go to jail or whatever. (Occasionally they end up in shoot-outs with cops, and end up dead.) Delusion? Check. Self-harm? Check. I really suspect you just haven't heard or read anything about these folks. I think you're barking up the wrong tree in this case, buddy.
abritinthebay 10y ago
Delusions are a sign of mental illness - if a person honestly believes this stuff they are delusional.
- fit2rule 10y ago
  Even if they were, why is it socially acceptable to just write a person off as "mentally ill" when they could just be very poorly educated? Or, are those two things equivalent in your opinion?
  - alkonaut 10y ago
    Believing it when you first hear it is one thing. That could be related to education. Persisting in the belief while fending off any criticism as conspiracy, that is delusional. (I.e. refusing to be educated must either be delusion or stupidity or both)
  - abritinthebay 10y ago
    Who said anything about writing them off? Mental illness is a real thing with real treatment options. There's no need to write anyone off - we should endeavor to help them.
    - fit2rule 10y ago
      Perhaps there is something of value to their point of view. Would you be more or less inclined to investigate this possibility, with the pretense that they are "mentally ill" in place? I posit that this "mentally ill" label is as heinous as casual racism, in that it serves to remove interest in the target.
- seanp2k2 10y ago
  Interesting to take this definition and apply it to various religious beliefs in the context of mental health.
  - vidarh 10y ago
stevetrewick 10y ago
>Does it bother anyone else that whenever someone comes up with a strange or weird, non-mainstream idea, their mental health is immediately called into question Broadly speaking, yes. Yes it does. Which is why - knowing this particular response was inevitable - I thought long and hard about answering in the affirmative. There's no bigotry involved here, I've been down this particular rabbit hole for a good old look. The MH (note 'health' not 'illness') issue is nothing to do with the idea per se but with a set of behaviours that exhibit a dissociation between action and consequence and can lead to harm.
DanBC 10y ago
I agree with you, and you can probably find me saying very similar in the past on HN. But this is so extreme that people feel the need to find an explanation, and since most people have very little experience of serious mental illness they think it fits this. Have a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJXPlxMb0gs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJXPlxMb0gs It's hard to say that's not illness or drugs, right? This is Hannah Rose Shotbolt, (of Gloucester, Gloucestershire, UK). She threw a bottle at someone, wounding them. She went to prison, and came out, and then got involved in Freewoman stuff. She wrote to all the people (The Queen! The Arch-Bishop of Canterbury!) to tell them that she was no longer under their contract, and that she de-registered her car. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCdMHwqT39c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCdMHwqT39c (Here's the reply from DVLA) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wkpSiJ3HfY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wkpSiJ3HfY Her and her friend were driving, and one of them was smoking cannabis. They passed a police car, who spotted the lack of insurance and registration, and pulled them over. Here's one video of her being pulled over: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSGLGByRYE8&index=17&list=PLydCO0Lr3AJ0qHjByHU7LZcQKIKUn3xAu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSGLGByRYE8&index=17&list=PL... And another: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gULUQTUREwk&index=18&list=PLydCO0Lr3AJ0qHjByHU7LZcQKIKUn3xAu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gULUQTUREwk&index=18&list=PL... It's so extreme that people feel the need to explain it somehow. These aren't just odd ideas. These are bizarre ideas, that lack internal coherence (she's in the UK but makes extensive use of Black's Legal Dictionary -- a US reference book about US law) and that cause harm. Here's a channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC81FiNbYl92EIl7Zx5G8v9w https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC81FiNbYl92EIl7Zx5G8v9w Here's another channel that contains some of her videos: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCELFsi-Defp1GyOEeLZaSzw https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCELFsi-Defp1GyOEeLZaSzw

spatulon 10y ago

The idea being presented is obviously nonsense. I don't mention their mental health as an attempt to discredit their idea; the idea itself is not credible enough to be worth arguing about. It's not the idea that made me question their mental health. It's the sheer incoherency of their presentation, e.g. on their website (http://legalnamefraud.com/ http://legalnamefraud.com/). The style strikes me as the written equivalent of a schizophrenic person standing on a street corner shouting inanities at passersby. You wouldn't want to have a shouting match with that person on the street and draw a crowd around them, and I don't think we should do the same here.

fit2rule 10y ago
I'm not at all defending these peoples opinions - just pointing out the unwarranted hatred they attract as a result of having an idea that is not mainstream/not supported by establishment politics. The speed and ease with which someones' mental health is called into question is just as alarming and .. frankly .. disturbing, as the idea that we are not subjects of the States in which we dwell. "That person is mentally ill" is the clarion call of establishment doublethink, and I put anyone who uses it as a means of justifying their bigotry against anti-establishment thought in the same bin as the loonies who think they can change their name to get out of a parking ticket .. Alas, its quite acceptable behaviour to call into question someones mental health if they propose an idea non-mainstream/aligned with establishment ideals. I think this, in itself, is a more destructive social response which, unfortunately, doesn't require expensive billboards to propagate throughout society ..
- Frondo 10y ago
  It's not establishment double-think, and that claim itself is rather silly. I'm quite sympathetic to claims that we're too quick to dismiss people with mental illness, but when it comes to people living their lives in harmful ways based on delusions (which is common in the sovereign citizen movement), I'm all in for calling it mental illness, or something like that. People can believe whatever nutty things they want, I say, but once they put themselves (or loved ones, or whatever) in harm's way based on those beliefs, and don't change them when consequently harmed, well, what else do you want to call it? Delusional stupidity?
  - fit2rule 10y ago
    Can you think of any other marginalized folks whose ideas you don't like who might be considered valid targets for your "mentally ill" label, and therefore not worthy of any further attention? Might these folks be minorities, or under-represented segments of society, who nevertheless have as much of a right to their opinion as you do? There is nothing here that demonstrates these people are harming themselves. Do you have such evidence? In a free society, people are free to be stupid and live their lives according to how they see it. People are free to interpret the law, personally and socially, however they wish. This doesn't mean they need to be classified as "ill" by all and sundry, for the sake of a few differences of opinion. Or .. does it? You know who else was good at calling 'unsavory elements' mentally ill for the sake of social isolation? Stalin.
    - Frondo 10y ago
      What? The sovereign citizen movement is full of people who get arrested, imprisoned, get their stuff impounded. I don't think you really have any idea who you're trying to defend as "differently normal" here. This is a movement that tells its adherents, "repeat these legal incantations, and you get out of speeding tickets or paying property taxes". And its adherents actually try that nonsense out, and invariably go to jail or whatever. (Occasionally they end up in shoot-outs with cops, and end up dead.) Delusion? Check. Self-harm? Check. I really suspect you just haven't heard or read anything about these folks. I think you're barking up the wrong tree in this case, buddy.

abritinthebay 10y ago

Delusions are a sign of mental illness - if a person honestly believes this stuff they are delusional.

fit2rule 10y ago
Even if they were, why is it socially acceptable to just write a person off as "mentally ill" when they could just be very poorly educated? Or, are those two things equivalent in your opinion?
- alkonaut 10y ago
  Believing it when you first hear it is one thing. That could be related to education. Persisting in the belief while fending off any criticism as conspiracy, that is delusional. (I.e. refusing to be educated must either be delusion or stupidity or both)
- abritinthebay 10y ago
  Who said anything about writing them off? Mental illness is a real thing with real treatment options. There's no need to write anyone off - we should endeavor to help them.
  - fit2rule 10y ago
    Perhaps there is something of value to their point of view. Would you be more or less inclined to investigate this possibility, with the pretense that they are "mentally ill" in place? I posit that this "mentally ill" label is as heinous as casual racism, in that it serves to remove interest in the target.
seanp2k2 10y ago
Interesting to take this definition and apply it to various religious beliefs in the context of mental health.
- vidarh 10y ago

stevetrewick 10y ago

>Does it bother anyone else that whenever someone comes up with a strange or weird, non-mainstream idea, their mental health is immediately called into question Broadly speaking, yes. Yes it does. Which is why - knowing this particular response was inevitable - I thought long and hard about answering in the affirmative. There's no bigotry involved here, I've been down this particular rabbit hole for a good old look. The MH (note 'health' not 'illness') issue is nothing to do with the idea per se but with a set of behaviours that exhibit a dissociation between action and consequence and can lead to harm.

DanBC 10y ago

I agree with you, and you can probably find me saying very similar in the past on HN. But this is so extreme that people feel the need to find an explanation, and since most people have very little experience of serious mental illness they think it fits this. Have a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJXPlxMb0gs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJXPlxMb0gs It's hard to say that's not illness or drugs, right? This is Hannah Rose Shotbolt, (of Gloucester, Gloucestershire, UK). She threw a bottle at someone, wounding them. She went to prison, and came out, and then got involved in Freewoman stuff. She wrote to all the people (The Queen! The Arch-Bishop of Canterbury!) to tell them that she was no longer under their contract, and that she de-registered her car. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCdMHwqT39c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCdMHwqT39c (Here's the reply from DVLA) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wkpSiJ3HfY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wkpSiJ3HfY Her and her friend were driving, and one of them was smoking cannabis. They passed a police car, who spotted the lack of insurance and registration, and pulled them over. Here's one video of her being pulled over: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSGLGByRYE8&index=17&list=PLydCO0Lr3AJ0qHjByHU7LZcQKIKUn3xAu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSGLGByRYE8&index=17&list=PL... And another: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gULUQTUREwk&index=18&list=PLydCO0Lr3AJ0qHjByHU7LZcQKIKUn3xAu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gULUQTUREwk&index=18&list=PL... It's so extreme that people feel the need to explain it somehow. These aren't just odd ideas. These are bizarre ideas, that lack internal coherence (she's in the UK but makes extensive use of Black's Legal Dictionary -- a US reference book about US law) and that cause harm. Here's a channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC81FiNbYl92EIl7Zx5G8v9w https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC81FiNbYl92EIl7Zx5G8v9w Here's another channel that contains some of her videos: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCELFsi-Defp1GyOEeLZaSzw https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCELFsi-Defp1GyOEeLZaSzw