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My impression of working in Japan around five years ago was that it felt like an economy medicated on caffeine. Work goes on from 8am - 9pm, after which many a

My impression of working in Japan around five years ago was that it felt like an economy medicated on caffeine. Work goes on from 8am - 9pm, after which many are expected to go out and socialize with their colleagues (karaoke etc) and get drunk until 3am. Rinse and repeat, most days of the week. It wasn't at all unusual to see rows of salarymen asleep on the subway every morning. Japan's most popular drink is a brand of canned coffee which is on sale everywhere and in the vending machines that line the streets. Coca Cola's brand of this coffee accounts for an outsize proportion of their global profits (something like 12%, only sold in Japan). All of this seems to be totally okay and accepted despite the obvious impact on productivity of regularly going for long periods without sleep. This is the offices of Dentsu, Japan's largest media agency, at night: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EWX6--sQtsA https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EWX6--sQtsA

somethingsimple 10y ago
> after which many are expected to go out and socialize with their colleagues (karaoke etc) and get drunk until 3am. Is it socially acceptable not to do so? Or is there high pressure from peers or superiors to do it? When do people spend time with their families there? If they even have families...
- kristianc 10y ago
  There's an expectation that you'd participate at least to some extent. There will be smaller karaoke / drinking type parties after work, and a larger 'nomikai' meal at a large restaurant which is used to celebrate a major milestone say every month or quarter. You would probably be expected to participate in the larger one, whereas particpating in less of the smaller ones would become adverse career wise over time. Drinking is theoretically optional. Typically family time seemed to be at weekends, and heavily focused on getting out and about into the countryside etc. The apartments are so small that it wouldn't really be feasible or desirable to hang out at home much.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    So, seems like Japan is a totally unproductive country? I mean, they work all this time, which seems like twice what an average country would do, and they're still doing ho-hum in most markets, are non-existent in most areas of modern tech, and have a huge deficit. If it weren't for their cars and some consumer electronics stuff (that has seen its peak in the late 80s - early 90s) they'd be done.
    - kristianc 10y ago
      It's not massively productive, and the amount of time spent at work doesn't really reflect the amount of work done. After about 5, the beers will come out. The creative output isn't great either. Agencies like Dentsu are the size they are because of relationships, and that there will be someone there to answer the phone any time of the day or night, rather than out of any creative brilliance. Dentsu are an example of a big Japanese company that has recently started to work with Western companies to in effect, outsource the innovation and creative ideas bit. Your analysis is correct - once Japan lost its supply chain supremacy they were never likely to be able to win back the advantage by producing higher quality goods and services.
      - coldtea 10y ago
        >Your analysis is correct - once Japan lost its supply chain supremacy they were never likely to be able to win back the advantage by producing higher quality goods and services. Would you say the Chinese are somewhat different in this regard? I have a feeling they can have more knack for this going forward.
        kristianc 10y ago
        The Chinese have the Shanzai model, which almost embraces the 'copycat' phenomenon to drive innovation. It's a very very open culture where everyone publishes their bill of materials and design specs, and any other company can use them. No patents. > http://www.strategyand.pwc.com/media/file/Shan_Zhai_AChinese_Phenomenon.pdf http://www.strategyand.pwc.com/media/file/Shan_Zhai_AChinese...
- itazula 10y ago
  In many offices, the majority of the employees start at about 10 am or even later. Also, most people people prefer to go home using public transportation, which stops relatively early (in most places, between midnight and 1:00 am). Extroverts like to socialize, introverts less so. Personally, I fall into the latter camp, but I usually find it to be invigorating and educational when I do "participate." Those with families often "bow out" (no pun intended), although I can see that with some groups, there might be peer pressure. If one has a long commute, that can be a perfect excuse to not participate or to leave early.
- Ezhik 10y ago
  I wonder if one can even make it in Japan if they don't drink.
  - astrange 10y ago
    That's why they invented non-alcoholic beer.
  - kalleboo 10y ago
    No, it's fine if you just drink tea non-alcoholic beer. You just have to act the part. At least at my wife's company it's fine (it may help she has the excuse of having to drive)
- mathattack 10y ago
  My experience (a few periods in the late 90s to mid 2000s) was high pressure for locals working for Japanese firms, less so for foreigners or locals working for foreign firms. The informal drinking (where junior workers can "say anything" to the boss and blame it on the alcohol) was a counter-balance to the formality of the work, where juniors would never contradict their seniors. For the formality to work, you need and outlet. It's the way the culture balances formality and relationships. Bosses are expected to be available to hear from their employees after hours. If they aren't, they won't be respected, or know what's really going on. In some cases the family relationships have a strict division of labor: Dad works and Mom raises the family. Two very distinct lives. In more traditional companies and families it can look bad to come home from work by 6. (Are you no longer important?) In other cases the forced socializing eases up somewhat over the years, or the parents find work in smaller or foreign companies.
  - digi_owl 10y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giri_%28Japanese%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giri_%28Japanese%29 May be worth a look.
Aelinsaar 10y ago
For a country that prizes excellence, you'd think they'd be more focused on actually achieving it, and not just appearing to achieve it.
- jcoffland 10y ago
  It's still a country made up of humans. Humans are not so different there than they are here (where ever here may be).
  - Aelinsaar 10y ago
    That's a very fair point.
cm3 10y ago
But this cannot be true for all industries, can it? I mean, there are industries where Japanese products are the leaders in terms of quality and reliability. I don't believe those are primarily staffed with workers who sleep that little.
MichaelGG 10y ago
And yet they are very anti-drug right? You'd think they'd somehow allow the use of amphetamines or Ritalin. Much more effective than caffeine.
- amagumori 10y ago
  Oh, amphetamines were huge in Japan for a long time, especially during wwii and the postwar period of recovery, and while the government cracked down on drugs in a major way after the fifties, meth is still probably the top drug in Japan.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
Cyph0n 10y ago
> Japan's most popular drink is a brand of canned coffee which is on sale everywhere and in the vending machines that line the streets. Coca Cola's brand of this coffee accounts for an outsize proportion of their global profits (something like 12%, only sold in Japan). Yet another strange Japan-related fact. That is an insane amount of coffee. For anyone curious, the Coca Cola beverage is called "Georgia": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(coffee) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(coffee).
- toomanybeersies 10y ago
  It's interesting that canned coffee is very popular in Asia (or that's my experience from SE Asia, Nestle seems to be the most popular there), but not in the western world.
  - Cyph0n 10y ago
    It's actually quite good. I used to look sideways at people who drink iced coffee in general, but now I've embraced the dark side :P
  - krick 10y ago
    Isn't it? I wouldn't say it's uncommon in Europe.
    - FreeFull 10y ago
      I've never seen canned coffee in Poland, Czech Republic, Greece or England, but I can't speak for other countries.
      - flashm 10y ago
        Canned and cartoned(!) coffee is all over the place now in the UK. Starbucks make a lot of it, and there seems to be quite a few smaller brands popping up. It's all full of sugar though, more like slightly coffee flavoured milkshakes. Combination of the sugar and caffeine really works though...
ashitlerferad 10y ago
> an economy medicated on caffeine. Coffee makes the world go around.
- Ftuuky 10y ago
  2nd largest commodity in the world, IIRC.

somethingsimple 10y ago

> after which many are expected to go out and socialize with their colleagues (karaoke etc) and get drunk until 3am. Is it socially acceptable not to do so? Or is there high pressure from peers or superiors to do it? When do people spend time with their families there? If they even have families...

kristianc 10y ago
There's an expectation that you'd participate at least to some extent. There will be smaller karaoke / drinking type parties after work, and a larger 'nomikai' meal at a large restaurant which is used to celebrate a major milestone say every month or quarter. You would probably be expected to participate in the larger one, whereas particpating in less of the smaller ones would become adverse career wise over time. Drinking is theoretically optional. Typically family time seemed to be at weekends, and heavily focused on getting out and about into the countryside etc. The apartments are so small that it wouldn't really be feasible or desirable to hang out at home much.
- coldtea 10y ago
  So, seems like Japan is a totally unproductive country? I mean, they work all this time, which seems like twice what an average country would do, and they're still doing ho-hum in most markets, are non-existent in most areas of modern tech, and have a huge deficit. If it weren't for their cars and some consumer electronics stuff (that has seen its peak in the late 80s - early 90s) they'd be done.
  - kristianc 10y ago
    It's not massively productive, and the amount of time spent at work doesn't really reflect the amount of work done. After about 5, the beers will come out. The creative output isn't great either. Agencies like Dentsu are the size they are because of relationships, and that there will be someone there to answer the phone any time of the day or night, rather than out of any creative brilliance. Dentsu are an example of a big Japanese company that has recently started to work with Western companies to in effect, outsource the innovation and creative ideas bit. Your analysis is correct - once Japan lost its supply chain supremacy they were never likely to be able to win back the advantage by producing higher quality goods and services.
    - coldtea 10y ago
      >Your analysis is correct - once Japan lost its supply chain supremacy they were never likely to be able to win back the advantage by producing higher quality goods and services. Would you say the Chinese are somewhat different in this regard? I have a feeling they can have more knack for this going forward.
      - kristianc 10y ago
        The Chinese have the Shanzai model, which almost embraces the 'copycat' phenomenon to drive innovation. It's a very very open culture where everyone publishes their bill of materials and design specs, and any other company can use them. No patents. > http://www.strategyand.pwc.com/media/file/Shan_Zhai_AChinese_Phenomenon.pdf http://www.strategyand.pwc.com/media/file/Shan_Zhai_AChinese...
itazula 10y ago
In many offices, the majority of the employees start at about 10 am or even later. Also, most people people prefer to go home using public transportation, which stops relatively early (in most places, between midnight and 1:00 am). Extroverts like to socialize, introverts less so. Personally, I fall into the latter camp, but I usually find it to be invigorating and educational when I do "participate." Those with families often "bow out" (no pun intended), although I can see that with some groups, there might be peer pressure. If one has a long commute, that can be a perfect excuse to not participate or to leave early.
Ezhik 10y ago
I wonder if one can even make it in Japan if they don't drink.
- astrange 10y ago
  That's why they invented non-alcoholic beer.
- kalleboo 10y ago
  No, it's fine if you just drink tea non-alcoholic beer. You just have to act the part. At least at my wife's company it's fine (it may help she has the excuse of having to drive)
mathattack 10y ago
My experience (a few periods in the late 90s to mid 2000s) was high pressure for locals working for Japanese firms, less so for foreigners or locals working for foreign firms. The informal drinking (where junior workers can "say anything" to the boss and blame it on the alcohol) was a counter-balance to the formality of the work, where juniors would never contradict their seniors. For the formality to work, you need and outlet. It's the way the culture balances formality and relationships. Bosses are expected to be available to hear from their employees after hours. If they aren't, they won't be respected, or know what's really going on. In some cases the family relationships have a strict division of labor: Dad works and Mom raises the family. Two very distinct lives. In more traditional companies and families it can look bad to come home from work by 6. (Are you no longer important?) In other cases the forced socializing eases up somewhat over the years, or the parents find work in smaller or foreign companies.
- digi_owl 10y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giri_%28Japanese%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giri_%28Japanese%29 May be worth a look.

Aelinsaar 10y ago

For a country that prizes excellence, you'd think they'd be more focused on actually achieving it, and not just appearing to achieve it.

jcoffland 10y ago
It's still a country made up of humans. Humans are not so different there than they are here (where ever here may be).
- Aelinsaar 10y ago
  That's a very fair point.

cm3 10y ago

But this cannot be true for all industries, can it? I mean, there are industries where Japanese products are the leaders in terms of quality and reliability. I don't believe those are primarily staffed with workers who sleep that little.

MichaelGG 10y ago

And yet they are very anti-drug right? You'd think they'd somehow allow the use of amphetamines or Ritalin. Much more effective than caffeine.

amagumori 10y ago
Oh, amphetamines were huge in Japan for a long time, especially during wwii and the postwar period of recovery, and while the government cracked down on drugs in a major way after the fifties, meth is still probably the top drug in Japan.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

Cyph0n 10y ago

> Japan's most popular drink is a brand of canned coffee which is on sale everywhere and in the vending machines that line the streets. Coca Cola's brand of this coffee accounts for an outsize proportion of their global profits (something like 12%, only sold in Japan). Yet another strange Japan-related fact. That is an insane amount of coffee. For anyone curious, the Coca Cola beverage is called "Georgia": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(coffee) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(coffee).

toomanybeersies 10y ago
It's interesting that canned coffee is very popular in Asia (or that's my experience from SE Asia, Nestle seems to be the most popular there), but not in the western world.
- Cyph0n 10y ago
  It's actually quite good. I used to look sideways at people who drink iced coffee in general, but now I've embraced the dark side :P
- krick 10y ago
  Isn't it? I wouldn't say it's uncommon in Europe.
  - FreeFull 10y ago
    I've never seen canned coffee in Poland, Czech Republic, Greece or England, but I can't speak for other countries.
    - flashm 10y ago
      Canned and cartoned(!) coffee is all over the place now in the UK. Starbucks make a lot of it, and there seems to be quite a few smaller brands popping up. It's all full of sugar though, more like slightly coffee flavoured milkshakes. Combination of the sugar and caffeine really works though...

ashitlerferad 10y ago

> an economy medicated on caffeine. Coffee makes the world go around.

Ftuuky 10y ago
2nd largest commodity in the world, IIRC.