8 ms·

The results for Toyota are a reflection of their dedication to production engineering [1], dented by recent recalls. The popular view of bleeding-edge engineer

by femto 10y ago

The results for Toyota are a reflection of their dedication to production engineering [1], dented by recent recalls. The popular view of bleeding-edge engineering is putting exciting new features into customer's hands. An alternative view (which can be just as satisfying from an engineering perspective) is creating a bleeding-edge factory to produce millions of otherwise mundane products that "just work". As an aside, there's a certain smugness (and sense of power?) that goes with producing a product that the end user takes for granted but you know that few other people could produce. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Production_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Production_System

MawNicker 10y ago
> there's a certain smugness (and sense of power?) Yes! I have had this idea floating in my head for a while now. At some point opening a can of soda I experienced this wave of humility. Sitting there mindlessly drinking sugar water for the zillionth time and finally realizing the achievement of engineering necessary for that mundane experience. The aluminum is recycled. It's a continuous cycle that obviates the need to clean glassware. Later I learned about the design of the pull tab mechanism. It's pretty sophisticated. It's specifically designed to have two operating states. You usually experience them when opening a can of soda if you're paying attention. It replaced the removable tab that caused littering and slightly sub-optimal recycling efficiency. It's a very subtle design change that likely required massive overhauls in manufacturing equipment.
- jackcarter 10y ago
  Here's a video on soda can design: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUhisi2FBuw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUhisi2FBuw
  - MawNicker 10y ago
    Wow. That was an awesome video. Thank you. I didn't know why the top had a neck. Further efficiency apparently. He has an excellent explanation of the two-mode pull tab towards the end. Direct link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUhisi2FBuw&t=508 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUhisi2FBuw&t=508
    - macintux 10y ago
      I hated that original pull tab design as a kid. Those sharp edges were vicious.
- jacquesm 10y ago
  This might interest you: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8098146 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8098146
paulgerhardt 10y ago
>An alternative view...is creating a bleeding-edge factory... This is not what Toyota does. VW does this[1]. Tesla does this[2]. But not Toyota [3]. Watch those videos. Which ones are full of robots and computers? Which ones are all manual labor? My tone should give it away. The Toyota Production System link you cite was heavily developed by Taiichi Ohno. You can learn more in his 1978 book: "Toyota Production System". There's a whole chapter on procurement. Taiichi san's very, very strong belief is: When purchasing new equipment, we must consider buying the minimum capable of meeting our requirements. Reliability and ease of maintenance should be considered before features. Bells and whistles can often be added later if the need arises. We want to avoid buying features "just in case." We must consider up-time, utilization and quality factors when making equipment choices. Further emphasis is put on making old equipment last longer. Less 'bleeding edge'. More 'minimum viable' meets 'minimum risk'. Design emphasis is very conservative. Material choice is very conservative. You will not find innovation. You will find reliability. You will find simplification. You will find repeatability. As far as risk goes, Toyota is the bond market of the automotive industry. They make a vehicle in nearly every category. It is a standout in none of them. The engines are bulkier. They are less fuel efficient. They underperform in nearly every metric. They are costly for their performance specs. But they last. The interesting thing about their production line system is how much is focused on the people on the line rather than automating the process on the line. It's the YC version of "Talk to your users" - except applied to workers on the line. Most companies try to automate this step out. Toyota does remove their workers - but only to get more training. This English translation[4] of a Le Monde artice from a few years ago goes into extensive detail about the "Takumi" system of training master craftsmen. Toyota gets a lot of deserved credit for making great products - how they make those products is frequently misunderstood - famously so by Detroit in the '80's. Their process is counter-intuitive and worth a study. I recommend starting with Taiichi's book mentioned above. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlIyDhss4Cg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlIyDhss4Cg [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOXaBto7giY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOXaBto7giY [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg5RlapdEtE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg5RlapdEtE [4] http://www.worldcrunch.com/tech-science/takumi-toyota-039-s-secret-weapons-to-train-the-robots/industry-car-technology-unemployment-robots-takumi/c4s16867/ http://www.worldcrunch.com/tech-science/takumi-toyota-039-s-... [5] http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2014/08/18/face-aux-robots-toyota-rehabilite-le-role-des-experts-maison_4472804_3234.html http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2014/08/18/face-aux-r...
JonoBB 10y ago
There is a reason that Toyota completely dominates in most Of Africa - their cars just last and last in harsh environments. In addition, the mechanics are simple and not overly electronic in nature, meaning that the car can be relatively easily maintained without needing highly specialised equipment.
- nabla9 10y ago
  Toyota Hilux is the "AK-47" of military vehicles.
- sangnoir 10y ago
  There's also a "network effect" at play: because Toyota's are already plentiful, spare parts are easier to come by and much cheaper for Toyota compared to any other manufacturer, thus encouraging people to buy yet more Toyota's.
- Luc 10y ago
  They are special Africa versions though. Engines that burn less clean, much simpler electronics... You can buy them in the EU but only for export.
chris_st 10y ago
I think, also, that Toyota still seems to understand the idea of a long-term investment. Other brands seem to be seeking the "short term fix" that will sell more cars this year, in search of immediate profits. Hats off to Toyota. We're still driving our Prius 12 years after buying it, it's been a great car.
- cylinder 10y ago
  I've had my scion for 11 years. Maintenance cost other than tires and oil - virtually zero. They use chains instead of belts too so I didn't even need to change the timing belt.
  - punk-coder 10y ago
    My '94 Saturn had a timing chain instead of a belt, which was awesome until the chain broke. Due to it being metal it shattered and fused itself in various parts of my engine, destroying the whole thing. Instead of having to pay for a new timing belt, I paid $2,500 for a new engine.
    - Tiksi 10y ago
      It's usually not much better if a timing belt snaps either. Two valves can't occupy the same space at the same time, so often you get shattered metal everywhere anyways. The difference is that timing chain failures are rare, timing belt failures are expected.
      - colhom 10y ago
        It's actually a valve and a piston you have to worry about. At normal engine speeds the valves will simply snap shut if the cam stops spinning. Valves slapping piston is generally only a worry with an interference engine design.[1] 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interference_engine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interference_engine
        10y ago

by femto 10y ago

MawNicker 10y ago

> there's a certain smugness (and sense of power?) Yes! I have had this idea floating in my head for a while now. At some point opening a can of soda I experienced this wave of humility. Sitting there mindlessly drinking sugar water for the zillionth time and finally realizing the achievement of engineering necessary for that mundane experience. The aluminum is recycled. It's a continuous cycle that obviates the need to clean glassware. Later I learned about the design of the pull tab mechanism. It's pretty sophisticated. It's specifically designed to have two operating states. You usually experience them when opening a can of soda if you're paying attention. It replaced the removable tab that caused littering and slightly sub-optimal recycling efficiency. It's a very subtle design change that likely required massive overhauls in manufacturing equipment.

jackcarter 10y ago
Here's a video on soda can design: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUhisi2FBuw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUhisi2FBuw
- MawNicker 10y ago
  Wow. That was an awesome video. Thank you. I didn't know why the top had a neck. Further efficiency apparently. He has an excellent explanation of the two-mode pull tab towards the end. Direct link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUhisi2FBuw&t=508 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUhisi2FBuw&t=508
  - macintux 10y ago
    I hated that original pull tab design as a kid. Those sharp edges were vicious.
jacquesm 10y ago
This might interest you: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8098146 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8098146

paulgerhardt 10y ago

>An alternative view...is creating a bleeding-edge factory... This is not what Toyota does. VW does this[1]. Tesla does this[2]. But not Toyota [3]. Watch those videos. Which ones are full of robots and computers? Which ones are all manual labor? My tone should give it away. The Toyota Production System link you cite was heavily developed by Taiichi Ohno. You can learn more in his 1978 book: "Toyota Production System". There's a whole chapter on procurement. Taiichi san's very, very strong belief is: When purchasing new equipment, we must consider buying the minimum capable of meeting our requirements. Reliability and ease of maintenance should be considered before features. Bells and whistles can often be added later if the need arises. We want to avoid buying features "just in case." We must consider up-time, utilization and quality factors when making equipment choices. Further emphasis is put on making old equipment last longer. Less 'bleeding edge'. More 'minimum viable' meets 'minimum risk'. Design emphasis is very conservative. Material choice is very conservative. You will not find innovation. You will find reliability. You will find simplification. You will find repeatability. As far as risk goes, Toyota is the bond market of the automotive industry. They make a vehicle in nearly every category. It is a standout in none of them. The engines are bulkier. They are less fuel efficient. They underperform in nearly every metric. They are costly for their performance specs. But they last. The interesting thing about their production line system is how much is focused on the people on the line rather than automating the process on the line. It's the YC version of "Talk to your users" - except applied to workers on the line. Most companies try to automate this step out. Toyota does remove their workers - but only to get more training. This English translation[4] of a Le Monde artice from a few years ago goes into extensive detail about the "Takumi" system of training master craftsmen. Toyota gets a lot of deserved credit for making great products - how they make those products is frequently misunderstood - famously so by Detroit in the '80's. Their process is counter-intuitive and worth a study. I recommend starting with Taiichi's book mentioned above. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlIyDhss4Cg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlIyDhss4Cg [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOXaBto7giY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOXaBto7giY [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg5RlapdEtE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg5RlapdEtE [4] http://www.worldcrunch.com/tech-science/takumi-toyota-039-s-secret-weapons-to-train-the-robots/industry-car-technology-unemployment-robots-takumi/c4s16867/ http://www.worldcrunch.com/tech-science/takumi-toyota-039-s-... [5] http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2014/08/18/face-aux-robots-toyota-rehabilite-le-role-des-experts-maison_4472804_3234.html http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2014/08/18/face-aux-r...

JonoBB 10y ago

There is a reason that Toyota completely dominates in most Of Africa - their cars just last and last in harsh environments. In addition, the mechanics are simple and not overly electronic in nature, meaning that the car can be relatively easily maintained without needing highly specialised equipment.

nabla9 10y ago
Toyota Hilux is the "AK-47" of military vehicles.
sangnoir 10y ago
There's also a "network effect" at play: because Toyota's are already plentiful, spare parts are easier to come by and much cheaper for Toyota compared to any other manufacturer, thus encouraging people to buy yet more Toyota's.
Luc 10y ago
They are special Africa versions though. Engines that burn less clean, much simpler electronics... You can buy them in the EU but only for export.

chris_st 10y ago

I think, also, that Toyota still seems to understand the idea of a long-term investment. Other brands seem to be seeking the "short term fix" that will sell more cars this year, in search of immediate profits. Hats off to Toyota. We're still driving our Prius 12 years after buying it, it's been a great car.

cylinder 10y ago
I've had my scion for 11 years. Maintenance cost other than tires and oil - virtually zero. They use chains instead of belts too so I didn't even need to change the timing belt.
- punk-coder 10y ago
  My '94 Saturn had a timing chain instead of a belt, which was awesome until the chain broke. Due to it being metal it shattered and fused itself in various parts of my engine, destroying the whole thing. Instead of having to pay for a new timing belt, I paid $2,500 for a new engine.
  - Tiksi 10y ago
    It's usually not much better if a timing belt snaps either. Two valves can't occupy the same space at the same time, so often you get shattered metal everywhere anyways. The difference is that timing chain failures are rare, timing belt failures are expected.
    - colhom 10y ago
      It's actually a valve and a piston you have to worry about. At normal engine speeds the valves will simply snap shut if the cam stops spinning. Valves slapping piston is generally only a worry with an interference engine design.[1] 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interference_engine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interference_engine
      - 10y ago