4 ms·

How about anti-national-sovereignty? The secret drafts and the extra-legal processes weaken national sovereignty. I think a strong nation is good for consumers

by sounds 10y ago

How about anti-national-sovereignty? The secret drafts and the extra-legal processes weaken national sovereignty. I think a strong nation is good for consumers, and a weak nation destroys the consumer base.

jonknee 10y ago
Has there ever been a trade agreement that was not drafted in secret? I mean that's pretty much the point in these things, lots of horse trading behind closed doors.
- tremon 10y ago
  Has there ever been a trade agreement that was not drafted in secret? Have there been many trade agreements that were drafted by corporations instead of government representatives?
  - jonknee 10y ago
    Of course the government was involved. Of course corporations were involved (it's trade, completely pointless without corporations!).
    - banach 10y ago
      Trade was a thing for thousands of years before the rise of corporations.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > Have there been many trade agreements that were drafted by corporations instead of government representatives? Pretty much all major trade agreements of the modern era have been largely drafted by corporate lobbyists, so, I guess "yes" is the answer you are looking for. Why do you ask?
- mcv 10y ago
  TPP and TTIP do seem to go quite a bit further than just some agreement about tariffs, though. There are public health issues at stake, and as such, public interest should definitely be involved.
tootie 10y ago
There's nothing anti-sovereignty. ISDS only allows foreign entities to sue for breach of a law voted on by our own Congress inasmuch as it effects them.
- Fej 10y ago
  Why not just use the US courts, then?
  - snowwrestler 10y ago
    That is what companies do in the U.S. ISDS is in the treaty to encourage foreign direct investment in developing nations, which often do not have well-functioning, independent and fair courts the way the U.S. does.
gavinpc 10y ago
Are you referring to the part about corporations being able to sue nations if they take any measures that they can claim hurts their business? [0] I assume that the "ISDS" that Warren refers to in the linked article (which was written before the draft went public), is chapter 28, "Dispute Settlement," in the draft at readthetpp.com. [1] This is already happening, at least with tobacco companies. "Last Week Tonight" did a piece on this.[2] [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/kill-the-dispute-settlement-language-in-the-trans-pacific-partnership/2015/02/25/ec7705a2-bd1e-11e4-b274-e5209a3bc9a9_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/kill-the-dispute-set... [1] https://www.readthetpp.com/ch28.html https://www.readthetpp.com/ch28.html [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UsHHOCH4q8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UsHHOCH4q8
- cheald 10y ago
  > if they take any measures that they can claim hurts their business? This is just flat-out false. The second link you provided clearly lays out the criteria for resolution of a conflict via the ISDS: > the dispute settlement provisions of this Chapter shall apply...wherever a Party considers that an actualor proposed measure of another Party is or would be inconsistent with the obligations of this Agreement or that another Party has otherwise failed to carry out its obligations under this Agreement; or wherever a Party considers thata benefit it could reasonably have expected to accrue to it under [this agreement] is being nullified or impaired as a result of the application of a measure of another Party that is not inconsistent with this Agreement. That is, the ISDS is for resolution of conflicts which are alleged to be in violation the the treaty, not for "any measures that they can claim hurts their business". The Phillip-Morris case you cite is because PM alleges that the Australian government expropriated their intellectual property without due compensation. This post[0] has a very nice breakdown of ISDS cases, rationale, and outcomes. Also give this thread[1] a read - SavannaJeff is a well-known professional trade economist, and has a lot of very valuable expert insight on the TPP that's worth reading. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/390p5l/over_2000000_europeans_have_now_signed_the/cs0hyfx https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/390p5l/over_2000000... [1] https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueReddit/comments/2srn0u/trade_secrets_why_will_no_one_answer_the_obvious/cnsffwo https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueReddit/comments/2srn0u/trade_sec...

by sounds 10y ago

jonknee 10y ago

Has there ever been a trade agreement that was not drafted in secret? I mean that's pretty much the point in these things, lots of horse trading behind closed doors.

tremon 10y ago
Has there ever been a trade agreement that was not drafted in secret? Have there been many trade agreements that were drafted by corporations instead of government representatives?
- jonknee 10y ago
  Of course the government was involved. Of course corporations were involved (it's trade, completely pointless without corporations!).
  - banach 10y ago
    Trade was a thing for thousands of years before the rise of corporations.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > Have there been many trade agreements that were drafted by corporations instead of government representatives? Pretty much all major trade agreements of the modern era have been largely drafted by corporate lobbyists, so, I guess "yes" is the answer you are looking for. Why do you ask?
mcv 10y ago
TPP and TTIP do seem to go quite a bit further than just some agreement about tariffs, though. There are public health issues at stake, and as such, public interest should definitely be involved.

tootie 10y ago

There's nothing anti-sovereignty. ISDS only allows foreign entities to sue for breach of a law voted on by our own Congress inasmuch as it effects them.

Fej 10y ago
Why not just use the US courts, then?
- snowwrestler 10y ago
  That is what companies do in the U.S. ISDS is in the treaty to encourage foreign direct investment in developing nations, which often do not have well-functioning, independent and fair courts the way the U.S. does.

gavinpc 10y ago

Are you referring to the part about corporations being able to sue nations if they take any measures that they can claim hurts their business? [0] I assume that the "ISDS" that Warren refers to in the linked article (which was written before the draft went public), is chapter 28, "Dispute Settlement," in the draft at readthetpp.com. [1] This is already happening, at least with tobacco companies. "Last Week Tonight" did a piece on this.[2] [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/kill-the-dispute-settlement-language-in-the-trans-pacific-partnership/2015/02/25/ec7705a2-bd1e-11e4-b274-e5209a3bc9a9_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/kill-the-dispute-set... [1] https://www.readthetpp.com/ch28.html https://www.readthetpp.com/ch28.html [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UsHHOCH4q8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UsHHOCH4q8

cheald 10y ago
> if they take any measures that they can claim hurts their business? This is just flat-out false. The second link you provided clearly lays out the criteria for resolution of a conflict via the ISDS: > the dispute settlement provisions of this Chapter shall apply...wherever a Party considers that an actualor proposed measure of another Party is or would be inconsistent with the obligations of this Agreement or that another Party has otherwise failed to carry out its obligations under this Agreement; or wherever a Party considers thata benefit it could reasonably have expected to accrue to it under [this agreement] is being nullified or impaired as a result of the application of a measure of another Party that is not inconsistent with this Agreement. That is, the ISDS is for resolution of conflicts which are alleged to be in violation the the treaty, not for "any measures that they can claim hurts their business". The Phillip-Morris case you cite is because PM alleges that the Australian government expropriated their intellectual property without due compensation. This post[0] has a very nice breakdown of ISDS cases, rationale, and outcomes. Also give this thread[1] a read - SavannaJeff is a well-known professional trade economist, and has a lot of very valuable expert insight on the TPP that's worth reading. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/390p5l/over_2000000_europeans_have_now_signed_the/cs0hyfx https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/390p5l/over_2000000... [1] https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueReddit/comments/2srn0u/trade_secrets_why_will_no_one_answer_the_obvious/cnsffwo https://np.reddit.com/r/TrueReddit/comments/2srn0u/trade_sec...