12 ms·

DEA Wants Inside Medical Records to Fight the War on Drugs

132 points by rosser 10y ago

sathackr 10y ago
The Obama administration disagrees, and argues that since the records have already been submitted to a third party (Oregon’s PDMP) that patients no longer enjoy an expectation of privacy. This follows the same(so far, legally defensible) reasoning of the phone records -- since you voluntarily gave your phone records to your phone company, you don't have an expectation of privacy regarding them. You could chose not to use a phone, but you didn't. So by that logic, if I want to maintain my expectation of privacy regarding my prescriptions, I can either A) Not have them filled (so that I don't 'voluntarily' give them to a 3rd party) or B) source them illegally. Seems like great options to me.
- rayiner 10y ago
  Not quite the same: there are strong legal protections on the privacy of medical records that don't exist as to phone records. I'll also quibble about this part: > since you voluntarily gave your phone records to your phone company You didn't "give your phone records to your phone company." You never had any phone records. Your phone company created those records. That's another distinction with the case here: Oregon's PDMP didn't create those records. It received them with strict federal requirements as to how to handle them.
  - serge2k 10y ago
    > You never had any phone records. Your phone company created those records Pretty sure that was the entire point of the post.
    - rubyfan 10y ago
      You could always stop using the phone company. Maybe setup two tin cans and a string.
- bpchaps 10y ago
  UGH. So much nonsense. Here's a response, post law suit, for the Chicago's mayor's office's phone records. Additionally, the Illinois Attorney General's Office Public Access Counselor ("PAC") has established that City-issued cell phone numbers are exempt from disclosure pursuant to 5 ILLS 140/7(1)(c), because the disclosure of these numbers would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy. As the PAC reasoned, certain City employees are issued cell phones so they may be on call during non-work hours or while away from their offices. Disclosure of these numbers could subject staff to excessive phone calls from the public at all times of day. Further, if staff were forced to turn off their cell phones to reduce such intrusion, they may not be readily available to attend to the business of the public body, defeating the purpose of issuing them cell phones. (See 2010 PAC 8685, issued September 30, 2010, attached hereto as Ex. B.) Thus, the only phone numbers which are not exempt under FOIA are those that are publically listed and are not home telephone numbers, personal telephone numbers, or work-issued cell phone numbers. In other words, FOIA only compels the production of listed numbers belonging to businesses, governmental agencies and other entities, and only those numbers which are not work-issued cell phones. Yet.. per FOIA: The disclosure of information that bears on the public duties of public employees and officials shall not be considered an invasion of personal privacy. In any case, I still got enough to make this (two tabs): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hgG79eIr8MbkjYrCvcTRN8n876KL8aXYYu5it8Lg0g8/ https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hgG79eIr8MbkjYrCvcTR...
- Alex3917 10y ago
  > if I want to maintain my expectation of privacy regarding my prescriptions Except for that pharmacies already sell your prescription data to anyone who wants it.
  - thatcat 10y ago
    Pharmacies records are regulated by hipaa and can only be sold after they are de-identified. Paragraph 2c https://www.privacyrights.org/fs/fsC4/CA-medical https://www.privacyrights.org/fs/fsC4/CA-medical
    - Alex3917 10y ago
      De-identified mostly just means that the names are removed. You still know each patient's doctor and zip code, so it's not especially difficult to merge this data with credit card transactions and other data to figure out who is taking what medication.
e40 10y ago
Yet more reasons to fear and hate the war on drugs. Jesus, this insanity needs to stop.
- trbvm2 10y ago
  If we are all of the same mind on this then it seems like we should start brainstorming ways to make it stop.
znpy 10y ago
Considering how much information the NSA has collected and how regularly, i think they should have been able to stop drug sales and bust most if not all drug-dealers a long long ago, without any need for accessing medical data.
- WildUtah 10y ago
  The NSA can know where drugs are and who is using them. That doesn't mean the NSA knows how to stop them. Drug users and dealers and importers have an army and are willing to fund it with whatever level of resources necessary to keep free commerce flowing. And if the national government took the measures necessary to significantly reduce drug use, their resources would be cut off because voters wouldn't stand for the much heavier and pettier and more expensive police state tactics. So the best bet for the government is burn vast amounts of money to randomly hurt random people without ever seeking any kind of improvement in the situation. More information doesn't affect that calculation.
cbanek 10y ago
This is really scary. Next thing you know, a positive drug test (for a job, or anything) will actually just take you in or be the probable cause for a search... makes me crave a poppyseed muffin.
gozur88 10y ago
We should probably get rid of the DEA. The amount of damage the agency does outweighs the benefits.
- cm3 10y ago
  Shouldn't they have a stock symbol for all the money they appropriated through the years? It's a publicly funded institution, so maybe it should be traded publicly as well.
  - wtf_is_frp 10y ago
    That's a hilarious idea.
  - cynwoody 10y ago
    The stock symbol DEA is already taken†. It belongs to Easterly Government Properties, a REIT which leases commercial property to federal agencies, such as "the Drug Enforcement Administration, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Internal Revenue Service ...". Market cap $616m. †https://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE%3ADEA https://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE%3ADEA
- moribondus 10y ago
  This is generally true for all law enforcement agencies. However, since the hoi polloi have bought into their false legitimacy, getting rid of them cannot be achieved just like that. The very same people complaining about their abuses on this site would be the first ones to utterly condemn you if you actually did anything even remotely effective to solve the problem. This constituency fully deserves what they are getting. Seriously, the problem should NOT be solved whatsoever. If you do not like the problem, you must join another constituency instead. When I live in Europe -- not right now actually -- I make sure to live in the middle of a muslim no-go zone. The police do not go there, because they cannot possibly guarantee that they would come back alive. Since I am publicly known to subscribe to the one-god theorem, I am not a target whatsoever for the locals. I am exceedingly safe from both the police and the criminals that often live there but do not dare to operate there.
- 10y ago
vinceguidry 10y ago
Looks like the safest approach to managing health conditions in the US whose treatments involve politically-sensitive drugs is to obtain a diagnosis, so you know what's wrong with you, and then to manage your own treatment using gray-market pharmaceuticals. If it's for pain, I would seriously consider just not treating it. Health care in the US is already such a shit-show that I would seriously consider moving out of the country if I developed a serious condition requiring constant treatment. I certainly won't have any expensive procedures done here.
- bp_throw 10y ago
  I'm Canadian and I have done this. After trying to deal with bipolar disorder for years I decided I'd finally try medication. I'd seen psychologists off-the-record before to diagnose. Seeing how family members have been treated for having mental issues makes me afraid of getting an official treatment. So I source lamotrigine (Lamictal), titrated myself up and seem to be doing OK. I saw a psychiatrist under an assumed named to verify my understanding of things (hint: unfortunately, most of their psych treatments are guesswork and playing medical roulette). I was a bit nervous as this medicine can make your skin die and fall off (SJS), so I found a private dermatologist to go to just in case. Fortunately it's working fine for me. No more days spent moping in bed. And no official diagnostic that I'm not sane. Costs me about $2000 a year. Small price to pay to not be treated like a child and having my volition called into question.
  - DenisM 10y ago
    > Seeing how family members have been treated for having mental issues makes me afraid of getting an official treatment. How were they treated? Seems surprising to me, given how prevalent mood disorders are.
- hammock 10y ago
  And what happens when they discover the drugs in your home?
  - vinceguidry 10y ago
onetwotree 10y ago
Oh well, another reason to switch to heroin. The FBI can't access your dealer's records. Seriously though, this is bad for privacy, bad for addicts, and bad for patients who need painkillers. Who thinks of this shit? Aging drug warriors I suppose.
- kazinator 10y ago
  > The FBI can't access your dealer's records. Oh yes they can; the very reason he's even retaining them is to have some plea-bargaining material.
  - tbyehl 10y ago
    "Are you taking notes of a criminal conspiracy? What are you thinking?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBdGOrcUEg8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBdGOrcUEg8
  - ryanlol 10y ago
    Unless you regularly buy kilos from your dealer, those records aren't exactly plea-bargaining material.
    - lsiebert 10y ago
      I think if you sell to famous/powerful people, it can be. At least high class prostitution seems to work that way from what I've read.
  - onetwotree 10y ago
    Um, dealers don't get plea bargins for turning in people below them on the supply chain, they get plea bargains for turning in people above them.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- jrapdx3 10y ago
  Bad for many people requiring medications for a wide array of conditions. It is completely wrong that warrantless searches are permitted. I hope more states follow Oregon's example and defend the privacy of medical care. It's extremely disheartening to find out about the Obama administration's position. There are so many problems in the country that urgently need to be addressed, but instead the DEA is mucking around in prescription records which deserve protection. We should indeed raise a stink about this foul situation. Most of all it's time to abolish the worthless DEA.
serge2k 10y ago
> Jones was hit with 14 felony counts but all of them were later dropped that is fucked on multiple levels. 14 counts? 14! and all dropped because they were ridiculous to begin with. ugh.
meeper16 10y ago
The DEA + RIAA = DEARIAA
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
Clubber 10y ago
"So we’re doing this to help you.” ... "with 14 felony counts" In the US, I think having a crippling drug addiction is better than 14 felony counts. What's that? 30 years in prison? Life? No chance of gainful employment for life? Shit paid public defender, or $300,000 to fight it? I thought we were getting more sensible about this stuff? Absurd. Write or email your congressman. It's the only thing that will do any good.
- llamataboot 10y ago
  Writing and emailing congresspeople may be better than nothing, but not by much. The only things that have consistently created change in this country are large groups of people, mostly working on the outside with a diversity of tactics (read: in the streets, and some violent/confrontational), some allies on the inside, and a lot of agitation.
broahmed 10y ago
> The DEA has claimed for years that under federal law it has the authority to access the state’s Prescription Drug Monitor Program database using only an “administrative subpoena.” These are unilaterally issued orders that do not require a showing of probable cause before a court, like what’s required to obtain a warrant. Related topic: I always get uneasy when law enforcement skirt around getting a warrant. Do we have any data showing that we're safer (e.g. accurate arrests are made more quickly) when law enforcement doesn't need a warrant?
- trhway 10y ago
  Even when warrants involved - mentioned today on radio - 2/3 Oakland drug related warrants are based on false info.
  - lsiebert 10y ago
    Yes but since they have to be based on probable cause and taken before a judge, there is a higher bar. But really, pain killer abuse should, in a perfect world, be a health matter, not a DEA matter, unless you are getting enough medication to have to be selling it. I think there is the argument that an individual could go to multiple doctors, or a doctor could write prescriptions for fake patients.
rubyfan 10y ago
Is it long past time for congress to act to clarify privacy rights that are being abused by the third party doctrine argument? It seems silly that this legal theory is so broad and convenient a tool that there is virtually no limitation on its powers to access information.
Illniyar 10y ago
Unrelated, but "gender identity disorder"? Is that a politically correct term or an homophobic one (or whatever you call it when it applies to transgender)? I really can't tell, I thought it was no longer ok to refer to homosexuality as a disease. Is it ok now to treat "feeling like you are in the wrong sex" as a disease that can be treated?
- jrapdx3 10y ago
  Gender Identity Disorder is not homosexuality, and it's now called Gender Dysphoria (GD) in the most recent diagnostic manuals. Homosexuality is not consider an illness, and does not require treatment, in fact no treatment is known. OTOH GD is the distress an individual has when biological status is inconsistent with internal experience of the "correct" gender. It's an uncommon condition occurring at a population rate of about 0.005%, affecting more males than females. Treatment of GD is available though complex. In most cases appropriate counseling is provided, and treatment possibly includes hormone and other medications, and reconstructive surgery.
  - lsiebert 10y ago
    American Psychiatrist Association changed being gay to not be a mental illness in 1973. And for people who have Gender Dysphoria, probably more accurate to say affecting more people assigned male at birth then people assigned female at birth.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  > Is it ok now to treat "feeling like you are in the wrong sex" as a disease that can be treated? I think the point is that it's your biological sex that's treated as "wrong" in this case, and treatment involves making it conform to how you feel.

132 points by rosser 10y ago

The Obama administration disagrees, and argues that since the records have already been submitted to a third party (Oregon’s PDMP) that patients no longer enjoy an expectation of privacy. This follows the same(so far, legally defensible) reasoning of the phone records -- since you voluntarily gave your phone records to your phone company, you don't have an expectation of privacy regarding them. You could chose not to use a phone, but you didn't. So by that logic, if I want to maintain my expectation of privacy regarding my prescriptions, I can either A) Not have them filled (so that I don't 'voluntarily' give them to a 3rd party) or B) source them illegally. Seems like great options to me.

rayiner 10y ago
Not quite the same: there are strong legal protections on the privacy of medical records that don't exist as to phone records. I'll also quibble about this part: > since you voluntarily gave your phone records to your phone company You didn't "give your phone records to your phone company." You never had any phone records. Your phone company created those records. That's another distinction with the case here: Oregon's PDMP didn't create those records. It received them with strict federal requirements as to how to handle them.
- serge2k 10y ago
  > You never had any phone records. Your phone company created those records Pretty sure that was the entire point of the post.
  - rubyfan 10y ago
    You could always stop using the phone company. Maybe setup two tin cans and a string.
bpchaps 10y ago
UGH. So much nonsense. Here's a response, post law suit, for the Chicago's mayor's office's phone records. Additionally, the Illinois Attorney General's Office Public Access Counselor ("PAC") has established that City-issued cell phone numbers are exempt from disclosure pursuant to 5 ILLS 140/7(1)(c), because the disclosure of these numbers would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy. As the PAC reasoned, certain City employees are issued cell phones so they may be on call during non-work hours or while away from their offices. Disclosure of these numbers could subject staff to excessive phone calls from the public at all times of day. Further, if staff were forced to turn off their cell phones to reduce such intrusion, they may not be readily available to attend to the business of the public body, defeating the purpose of issuing them cell phones. (See 2010 PAC 8685, issued September 30, 2010, attached hereto as Ex. B.) Thus, the only phone numbers which are not exempt under FOIA are those that are publically listed and are not home telephone numbers, personal telephone numbers, or work-issued cell phone numbers. In other words, FOIA only compels the production of listed numbers belonging to businesses, governmental agencies and other entities, and only those numbers which are not work-issued cell phones. Yet.. per FOIA: The disclosure of information that bears on the public duties of public employees and officials shall not be considered an invasion of personal privacy. In any case, I still got enough to make this (two tabs): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hgG79eIr8MbkjYrCvcTRN8n876KL8aXYYu5it8Lg0g8/ https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hgG79eIr8MbkjYrCvcTR...
Alex3917 10y ago
> if I want to maintain my expectation of privacy regarding my prescriptions Except for that pharmacies already sell your prescription data to anyone who wants it.
- thatcat 10y ago
  Pharmacies records are regulated by hipaa and can only be sold after they are de-identified. Paragraph 2c https://www.privacyrights.org/fs/fsC4/CA-medical https://www.privacyrights.org/fs/fsC4/CA-medical
  - Alex3917 10y ago
    De-identified mostly just means that the names are removed. You still know each patient's doctor and zip code, so it's not especially difficult to merge this data with credit card transactions and other data to figure out who is taking what medication.

e40 10y ago

Yet more reasons to fear and hate the war on drugs. Jesus, this insanity needs to stop.

trbvm2 10y ago
If we are all of the same mind on this then it seems like we should start brainstorming ways to make it stop.

znpy 10y ago

Considering how much information the NSA has collected and how regularly, i think they should have been able to stop drug sales and bust most if not all drug-dealers a long long ago, without any need for accessing medical data.

WildUtah 10y ago
The NSA can know where drugs are and who is using them. That doesn't mean the NSA knows how to stop them. Drug users and dealers and importers have an army and are willing to fund it with whatever level of resources necessary to keep free commerce flowing. And if the national government took the measures necessary to significantly reduce drug use, their resources would be cut off because voters wouldn't stand for the much heavier and pettier and more expensive police state tactics. So the best bet for the government is burn vast amounts of money to randomly hurt random people without ever seeking any kind of improvement in the situation. More information doesn't affect that calculation.

cbanek 10y ago

This is really scary. Next thing you know, a positive drug test (for a job, or anything) will actually just take you in or be the probable cause for a search... makes me crave a poppyseed muffin.

gozur88 10y ago

We should probably get rid of the DEA. The amount of damage the agency does outweighs the benefits.

cm3 10y ago
Shouldn't they have a stock symbol for all the money they appropriated through the years? It's a publicly funded institution, so maybe it should be traded publicly as well.
- wtf_is_frp 10y ago
  That's a hilarious idea.
- cynwoody 10y ago
  The stock symbol DEA is already taken†. It belongs to Easterly Government Properties, a REIT which leases commercial property to federal agencies, such as "the Drug Enforcement Administration, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Internal Revenue Service ...". Market cap $616m. †https://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE%3ADEA https://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE%3ADEA
moribondus 10y ago
This is generally true for all law enforcement agencies. However, since the hoi polloi have bought into their false legitimacy, getting rid of them cannot be achieved just like that. The very same people complaining about their abuses on this site would be the first ones to utterly condemn you if you actually did anything even remotely effective to solve the problem. This constituency fully deserves what they are getting. Seriously, the problem should NOT be solved whatsoever. If you do not like the problem, you must join another constituency instead. When I live in Europe -- not right now actually -- I make sure to live in the middle of a muslim no-go zone. The police do not go there, because they cannot possibly guarantee that they would come back alive. Since I am publicly known to subscribe to the one-god theorem, I am not a target whatsoever for the locals. I am exceedingly safe from both the police and the criminals that often live there but do not dare to operate there.
10y ago

vinceguidry 10y ago

Looks like the safest approach to managing health conditions in the US whose treatments involve politically-sensitive drugs is to obtain a diagnosis, so you know what's wrong with you, and then to manage your own treatment using gray-market pharmaceuticals. If it's for pain, I would seriously consider just not treating it. Health care in the US is already such a shit-show that I would seriously consider moving out of the country if I developed a serious condition requiring constant treatment. I certainly won't have any expensive procedures done here.

bp_throw 10y ago
I'm Canadian and I have done this. After trying to deal with bipolar disorder for years I decided I'd finally try medication. I'd seen psychologists off-the-record before to diagnose. Seeing how family members have been treated for having mental issues makes me afraid of getting an official treatment. So I source lamotrigine (Lamictal), titrated myself up and seem to be doing OK. I saw a psychiatrist under an assumed named to verify my understanding of things (hint: unfortunately, most of their psych treatments are guesswork and playing medical roulette). I was a bit nervous as this medicine can make your skin die and fall off (SJS), so I found a private dermatologist to go to just in case. Fortunately it's working fine for me. No more days spent moping in bed. And no official diagnostic that I'm not sane. Costs me about $2000 a year. Small price to pay to not be treated like a child and having my volition called into question.
- DenisM 10y ago
  > Seeing how family members have been treated for having mental issues makes me afraid of getting an official treatment. How were they treated? Seems surprising to me, given how prevalent mood disorders are.
hammock 10y ago
And what happens when they discover the drugs in your home?
- vinceguidry 10y ago

onetwotree 10y ago

Oh well, another reason to switch to heroin. The FBI can't access your dealer's records. Seriously though, this is bad for privacy, bad for addicts, and bad for patients who need painkillers. Who thinks of this shit? Aging drug warriors I suppose.

kazinator 10y ago
> The FBI can't access your dealer's records. Oh yes they can; the very reason he's even retaining them is to have some plea-bargaining material.
- tbyehl 10y ago
  "Are you taking notes of a criminal conspiracy? What are you thinking?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBdGOrcUEg8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBdGOrcUEg8
- ryanlol 10y ago
  Unless you regularly buy kilos from your dealer, those records aren't exactly plea-bargaining material.
  - lsiebert 10y ago
    I think if you sell to famous/powerful people, it can be. At least high class prostitution seems to work that way from what I've read.
- onetwotree 10y ago
  Um, dealers don't get plea bargins for turning in people below them on the supply chain, they get plea bargains for turning in people above them.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
jrapdx3 10y ago
Bad for many people requiring medications for a wide array of conditions. It is completely wrong that warrantless searches are permitted. I hope more states follow Oregon's example and defend the privacy of medical care. It's extremely disheartening to find out about the Obama administration's position. There are so many problems in the country that urgently need to be addressed, but instead the DEA is mucking around in prescription records which deserve protection. We should indeed raise a stink about this foul situation. Most of all it's time to abolish the worthless DEA.

serge2k 10y ago

> Jones was hit with 14 felony counts but all of them were later dropped that is fucked on multiple levels. 14 counts? 14! and all dropped because they were ridiculous to begin with. ugh.

meeper16 10y ago

The DEA + RIAA = DEARIAA

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

Clubber 10y ago

"So we’re doing this to help you.” ... "with 14 felony counts" In the US, I think having a crippling drug addiction is better than 14 felony counts. What's that? 30 years in prison? Life? No chance of gainful employment for life? Shit paid public defender, or $300,000 to fight it? I thought we were getting more sensible about this stuff? Absurd. Write or email your congressman. It's the only thing that will do any good.

llamataboot 10y ago
Writing and emailing congresspeople may be better than nothing, but not by much. The only things that have consistently created change in this country are large groups of people, mostly working on the outside with a diversity of tactics (read: in the streets, and some violent/confrontational), some allies on the inside, and a lot of agitation.

broahmed 10y ago

> The DEA has claimed for years that under federal law it has the authority to access the state’s Prescription Drug Monitor Program database using only an “administrative subpoena.” These are unilaterally issued orders that do not require a showing of probable cause before a court, like what’s required to obtain a warrant. Related topic: I always get uneasy when law enforcement skirt around getting a warrant. Do we have any data showing that we're safer (e.g. accurate arrests are made more quickly) when law enforcement doesn't need a warrant?

trhway 10y ago
Even when warrants involved - mentioned today on radio - 2/3 Oakland drug related warrants are based on false info.
- lsiebert 10y ago
  Yes but since they have to be based on probable cause and taken before a judge, there is a higher bar. But really, pain killer abuse should, in a perfect world, be a health matter, not a DEA matter, unless you are getting enough medication to have to be selling it. I think there is the argument that an individual could go to multiple doctors, or a doctor could write prescriptions for fake patients.

rubyfan 10y ago

Is it long past time for congress to act to clarify privacy rights that are being abused by the third party doctrine argument? It seems silly that this legal theory is so broad and convenient a tool that there is virtually no limitation on its powers to access information.

Illniyar 10y ago

Unrelated, but "gender identity disorder"? Is that a politically correct term or an homophobic one (or whatever you call it when it applies to transgender)? I really can't tell, I thought it was no longer ok to refer to homosexuality as a disease. Is it ok now to treat "feeling like you are in the wrong sex" as a disease that can be treated?

jrapdx3 10y ago
Gender Identity Disorder is not homosexuality, and it's now called Gender Dysphoria (GD) in the most recent diagnostic manuals. Homosexuality is not consider an illness, and does not require treatment, in fact no treatment is known. OTOH GD is the distress an individual has when biological status is inconsistent with internal experience of the "correct" gender. It's an uncommon condition occurring at a population rate of about 0.005%, affecting more males than females. Treatment of GD is available though complex. In most cases appropriate counseling is provided, and treatment possibly includes hormone and other medications, and reconstructive surgery.
- lsiebert 10y ago
  American Psychiatrist Association changed being gay to not be a mental illness in 1973. And for people who have Gender Dysphoria, probably more accurate to say affecting more people assigned male at birth then people assigned female at birth.
TeMPOraL 10y ago
> Is it ok now to treat "feeling like you are in the wrong sex" as a disease that can be treated? I think the point is that it's your biological sex that's treated as "wrong" in this case, and treatment involves making it conform to how you feel.