3 ms·

So the victim is to blame for their honesty? How does this improve security?

by settsu 10y ago

vinceguidry 10y ago
The point is not to blame the victim for her actions, (that's in the past) but to advise on how to avoid such a situation yourself. (in the future) Border crossings are one of those utterly weird situations where not knowing what's up will put you at odds with people who have zero respect for your convenience or comfort and are perfectly willing to remove you from both. And you won't learn what's up the first, second, third, or even fourth time you go through. You have to first appreciate the gravity of the situation and then second learn what you have to in order to gain successful passage. Borders are where ordinary people run right smack into geopolitics. Most of us have learned the lesson from others to not bring plants or currency across borders, and not to say you're working without a work visa, but there's lots of other things that can fuck you over. I learn something every time I read a story like this. In this case it's about the necessity of not giving the appearance of tax avoidance. This particular situation had nothing to do with security, they weren't worried about her trying to attack the UK.
- tobltobs 10y ago
  And what would your "advise" be if she would get into trouble for lying to a custom officer? I guess something like "Just don't lie".
  - vinceguidry 10y ago
    In order you to get in trouble for lying then they have to catch you in a lie. The easiest way for them to do that is for them to get you to admit to lying. This is why it's so important for you to give short, non-committal answers to their questions that reveal nothing, and to never let your guard down, because customs officials (any kind of security personnel, really) are not your friends.
    - tobltobs 10y ago
      To be sure that they couldn't catch her lying, she would have to avoid to take anything with her which could give a hint for her real purpose of visit. Also she should avoid that her name is for example on the speaker list. Also she should have a complete faked travel plan for her touristic visit, including hotel bookings. Does this sound realistic?
      - vinceguidry 10y ago
        Me personally, I would be sure to bring nothing with me across a border that could give a customs official anything to pester me about. This varies depending on the geopolitics of the region. I don't have to worry about wiping my laptop when traveling to Latin America, but I would absolutely do so if I were going to the UK. I certainly would not bring any documents. If I really needed hard copies, then beforehand I would scan them and upload them to Dropbox, then print them back out after I step off the plane. I'd bring a cheap burner phone and keep my contacts in the cloud, with a short list of essential names / numbers in my wallet. If asked about the clean phone, I'd just say I'm worried about theft. That way, when I tell them I'm just there for a vacation, they have no reason not to believe me, and even if they didn't, no inconsistency to start grilling me on. For hotel booking, I'd simply tell them the name of the hotel I'm actually staying at. If they want to verify, they can call the hotel, I am not going to volunteer a booking printout. If you were to look in my car at any given time, you would find nothing immediately visible. This is both to deter someone looking to break into my car to steal something, and law enforcement officials looking for something to mess with me over. I hold to the same principle when traveling. Stay clean and nondescript when moving through dangerous territory. I would take these steps whether I'm actually going for a vacation or not. I would never travel to another country willingly unless I could follow this protocol. It's just too dangerous.
        tobltobs 10y ago
        Sure, and I guess the speaker list problem could be avoided by using a faked passport. Edit: can't add a reply to the followup question anymore. So I add it here. Google, all your 007 travel style will break down if the find your name via Google on the speaker list.
forgottenpass 10y ago
It doesn't improve security. That is a different conversation. This about how to mitigate risk of hassle in interacting with a system that is broken (or, more depressing/honest working properly towards non-security aims).
- oneeyedpigeon 10y ago
  Yes, this is a textbook case of idiotic bureaucrats encouraging good, honest people to lie in order to go about their day-to-day lives. This policy is clearly counterproductive. -- UK citizen, absolutely furious about this.

So the victim is to blame for their honesty? How does this improve security?

by settsu 10y ago

So the victim is to blame for their honesty? How does this improve security?

The point is not to blame the victim for her actions, (that's in the past) but to advise on how to avoid such a situation yourself. (in the future) Border crossings are one of those utterly weird situations where not knowing what's up will put you at odds with people who have zero respect for your convenience or comfort and are perfectly willing to remove you from both. And you won't learn what's up the first, second, third, or even fourth time you go through. You have to first appreciate the gravity of the situation and then second learn what you have to in order to gain successful passage. Borders are where ordinary people run right smack into geopolitics. Most of us have learned the lesson from others to not bring plants or currency across borders, and not to say you're working without a work visa, but there's lots of other things that can fuck you over. I learn something every time I read a story like this. In this case it's about the necessity of not giving the appearance of tax avoidance. This particular situation had nothing to do with security, they weren't worried about her trying to attack the UK.

tobltobs 10y ago
And what would your "advise" be if she would get into trouble for lying to a custom officer? I guess something like "Just don't lie".
- vinceguidry 10y ago
  In order you to get in trouble for lying then they have to catch you in a lie. The easiest way for them to do that is for them to get you to admit to lying. This is why it's so important for you to give short, non-committal answers to their questions that reveal nothing, and to never let your guard down, because customs officials (any kind of security personnel, really) are not your friends.
  - tobltobs 10y ago
    To be sure that they couldn't catch her lying, she would have to avoid to take anything with her which could give a hint for her real purpose of visit. Also she should avoid that her name is for example on the speaker list. Also she should have a complete faked travel plan for her touristic visit, including hotel bookings. Does this sound realistic?
    - vinceguidry 10y ago
      Me personally, I would be sure to bring nothing with me across a border that could give a customs official anything to pester me about. This varies depending on the geopolitics of the region. I don't have to worry about wiping my laptop when traveling to Latin America, but I would absolutely do so if I were going to the UK. I certainly would not bring any documents. If I really needed hard copies, then beforehand I would scan them and upload them to Dropbox, then print them back out after I step off the plane. I'd bring a cheap burner phone and keep my contacts in the cloud, with a short list of essential names / numbers in my wallet. If asked about the clean phone, I'd just say I'm worried about theft. That way, when I tell them I'm just there for a vacation, they have no reason not to believe me, and even if they didn't, no inconsistency to start grilling me on. For hotel booking, I'd simply tell them the name of the hotel I'm actually staying at. If they want to verify, they can call the hotel, I am not going to volunteer a booking printout. If you were to look in my car at any given time, you would find nothing immediately visible. This is both to deter someone looking to break into my car to steal something, and law enforcement officials looking for something to mess with me over. I hold to the same principle when traveling. Stay clean and nondescript when moving through dangerous territory. I would take these steps whether I'm actually going for a vacation or not. I would never travel to another country willingly unless I could follow this protocol. It's just too dangerous.
      - tobltobs 10y ago
        Sure, and I guess the speaker list problem could be avoided by using a faked passport. Edit: can't add a reply to the followup question anymore. So I add it here. Google, all your 007 travel style will break down if the find your name via Google on the speaker list.

forgottenpass 10y ago

It doesn't improve security. That is a different conversation. This about how to mitigate risk of hassle in interacting with a system that is broken (or, more depressing/honest working properly towards non-security aims).

oneeyedpigeon 10y ago
Yes, this is a textbook case of idiotic bureaucrats encouraging good, honest people to lie in order to go about their day-to-day lives. This policy is clearly counterproductive. -- UK citizen, absolutely furious about this.