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As an employer I'd look at bootcamp participation as a sign that the applicant doesn't know how to program. Just like all of Sun's nee Oracle's and MS's (well,

by daxfohl 10y ago

As an employer I'd look at bootcamp participation as a sign that the applicant doesn't know how to program. Just like all of Sun's nee Oracle's and MS's (well, and Oracle's) cert programs 15 years ago. If you truly don't know how to program but want a coding job, then here's a $0 class. Start with JavaScript. Why? The entire internet is based on JavaScript, it can do anything, it runs on any OS, and it's easy to learn. Google how to write a "hello world" web server program in node.js. (js stands for JavaScript. node.js is the most popular way to write web server in JavaScript). Follow that tutorial through. Next, update it to make it tell the current time, updating once per second. Make a client-side and a server-side version of the app. Client-side means your code is in the HTML page and gets executed by the browser. Server-side means the code is on the web server, and your browser pings the server once per second for the correct time. Server-side is a bit more complex. Google is your friend in this. stackoverflow.com is a great community and resource to learn from (but search for existing answers before asking questions!). Next step is to find a TodoMVC tutorial (google again) in node.js, follow it through, and publish to heroku. You probably want to google "node.js todomvc heroku tutorial". (I didn't but I'm sure something would turn up). This will teach you about databases, version control (specifically "git"), hosting, and deployment. At the end of the day you'll have fully functional web app that anyone can use just by knowing the URL! Really once you've worked through that, or, once you're able to do it from scratch without googling much, you're a coder. Rejoice. At that point put your TodoMVC code on github (google again, but the place people share code via "the git"), and start mucking with it. Whatever suits your fancy: if you're into UX then spend time making the UX cleaner. If you're into databases or programming languages, adapt to different ones. If you're into performance, then blaze that path. Or if you're just not into todo lists, then use your newfound knowledge to start a project WRT something you do like. Final step, ping potential employers and show off your github account. You'll certainly get a look from SMB owners who are looking for people with some intrinsic motivation. You'll put people who subcontract their drive to bootcamp programs to shame.

CloudYeller 10y ago
Given the volume of applicants you have to sift through, I don't blame you for generalizing that "bootcamp == noob". I know several people who had a CS degree and/or had been working as actual "Software Engineer"s for fairly reputable companies before attending a bootcamp. For people like this, there are several reasons to attend: 1) The same kind of reason why people do MBA's: you get a mental break, in that you do something very different than what you're used to doing, and then probably get to work in a more desirable city/company. 2) To learn things that were not taught in a CS program. At least as of 3-4 years ago, most CS programs did not teach you any kind of web development-- if you're lucky, there was a class on the LAMP stack, or you could do an independent project using whatever stack you wanted. Otherwise it was Java/C++ for data structures & algorithms. Going from that, to webapp development, can leave you feeling like you have no idea what you're doing. Especially if your coworkers aren't nice enough to help you out. 3) To meet technical cofounders. It sounds like nowadays some programs are basically letting in anyone with a heartbeat, but a few years ago at least, before bootcamps became "cool" or whatever, they attracted highly motivated risk-takers, many of whom had prior programming experience.
- daxfohl 10y ago
  Agreed. Everything in perspective.
ecspike 10y ago
I took the SCJP (Sun Certified Java Programmer) exam back in the day. You did come out of it knowing details of the Java language very well. The Microsoft certs at the time were mostly how to use Visual Studio. The SCJP opened a few doors (many moons ago not in Silicon Valley), not bad for a $150 test. Once I had a few jobs, the cert disappeared from my resume. One minor nitpick, it wouldn't be Sun née Oracle. The right side is the maiden or former name.
teh_klev 10y ago
> a sign that the applicant doesn't know how to program. Just like all of Sun's nee Oracle's and MS's (well, and Oracle's) cert programs 15 years ago. That's unfair. Don't tar everyone with vendor qualifications with the same brush. Many of us obtained them because the companies we worked for needed minimum numbers of vendor "qualified" staff to attain or maintain the various levels of partner status available. For example, I worked at a consultancy that needed to maintain a pool of Microsoft and Cisco qualified staff to maintain the levels of official vendor partnership (Gold was the top MS partnership back in the day, don't remember what the Cisco one was) that would keep opening doors at blue chips.
- invaliduser 10y ago
  I guess the wrong signal is not that you have a cert, it's when you highlight it in your résumé.
  - RegEx 10y ago
    I agree with this. I used to teach at a coding school. I told my students to emphasize projects on their resume, not the fact that they went through our program.
paulmd 10y ago
Or to put it another way, if you knew how to program you wouldn't need to take a crash course. One of the unique things about programming is that many places will hire you without formal certification if you have the (non-language-specific) skills, so there's no real reason to do a bootcamp just for the credential. Conversely, even if you have credentials you're useless if you can't churn out decent code, and it's just not possible to get the chops to do that in a few weeks of study if you don't already have a basic level of skill. And if you do, there's again no reason to actually go to a bootcamp. Not that we don't have our problems with stuff like brogrammer culture (particularly in startups) but in terms of credentialling we're actually remarkably meritocratic. Pumping out good code is what matters, not the credential. A credential is one signal that an individual may be competent, but just like any other signal it's by no means foolproof, and there's plenty of other ways to demonstrate competence.

by daxfohl 10y ago

CloudYeller 10y ago

Given the volume of applicants you have to sift through, I don't blame you for generalizing that "bootcamp == noob". I know several people who had a CS degree and/or had been working as actual "Software Engineer"s for fairly reputable companies before attending a bootcamp. For people like this, there are several reasons to attend: 1) The same kind of reason why people do MBA's: you get a mental break, in that you do something very different than what you're used to doing, and then probably get to work in a more desirable city/company. 2) To learn things that were not taught in a CS program. At least as of 3-4 years ago, most CS programs did not teach you any kind of web development-- if you're lucky, there was a class on the LAMP stack, or you could do an independent project using whatever stack you wanted. Otherwise it was Java/C++ for data structures & algorithms. Going from that, to webapp development, can leave you feeling like you have no idea what you're doing. Especially if your coworkers aren't nice enough to help you out. 3) To meet technical cofounders. It sounds like nowadays some programs are basically letting in anyone with a heartbeat, but a few years ago at least, before bootcamps became "cool" or whatever, they attracted highly motivated risk-takers, many of whom had prior programming experience.

daxfohl 10y ago
Agreed. Everything in perspective.

ecspike 10y ago

I took the SCJP (Sun Certified Java Programmer) exam back in the day. You did come out of it knowing details of the Java language very well. The Microsoft certs at the time were mostly how to use Visual Studio. The SCJP opened a few doors (many moons ago not in Silicon Valley), not bad for a $150 test. Once I had a few jobs, the cert disappeared from my resume. One minor nitpick, it wouldn't be Sun née Oracle. The right side is the maiden or former name.

teh_klev 10y ago

> a sign that the applicant doesn't know how to program. Just like all of Sun's nee Oracle's and MS's (well, and Oracle's) cert programs 15 years ago. That's unfair. Don't tar everyone with vendor qualifications with the same brush. Many of us obtained them because the companies we worked for needed minimum numbers of vendor "qualified" staff to attain or maintain the various levels of partner status available. For example, I worked at a consultancy that needed to maintain a pool of Microsoft and Cisco qualified staff to maintain the levels of official vendor partnership (Gold was the top MS partnership back in the day, don't remember what the Cisco one was) that would keep opening doors at blue chips.

invaliduser 10y ago
I guess the wrong signal is not that you have a cert, it's when you highlight it in your résumé.
- RegEx 10y ago
  I agree with this. I used to teach at a coding school. I told my students to emphasize projects on their resume, not the fact that they went through our program.

paulmd 10y ago

Or to put it another way, if you knew how to program you wouldn't need to take a crash course. One of the unique things about programming is that many places will hire you without formal certification if you have the (non-language-specific) skills, so there's no real reason to do a bootcamp just for the credential. Conversely, even if you have credentials you're useless if you can't churn out decent code, and it's just not possible to get the chops to do that in a few weeks of study if you don't already have a basic level of skill. And if you do, there's again no reason to actually go to a bootcamp. Not that we don't have our problems with stuff like brogrammer culture (particularly in startups) but in terms of credentialling we're actually remarkably meritocratic. Pumping out good code is what matters, not the credential. A credential is one signal that an individual may be competent, but just like any other signal it's by no means foolproof, and there's plenty of other ways to demonstrate competence.