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It is very worrying that a car company would expect customers to sign an NDA to have their faulty cars fixed. That practice should certainly be illegal, in the

It is very worrying that a car company would expect customers to sign an NDA to have their faulty cars fixed. That practice should certainly be illegal, in the interest of public safety.

inopinatus 10y ago
IANAL but I suspect it would be a violation of consumer laws in some jurisdictions where Tesla does business. E.g. Australia where limited/conditional warranty clauses are overridden by statutory consumer rights.
- honkhonkpants 10y ago
  Statutory rights are also superior to warranty disclaimers in every state of the USA, although such rights vary from state to state, and there are federal statutes as well.
- TylerE 10y ago
  Australia's statutory rights extends for 12 months/20k kms. Most factory warranties are way longer than that.
  - NeutronBoy 10y ago
    Do you have a citation for that? (genuinely curious - I tried to find a list of what an 'acceptable period' for lifetime would be but couldn't find one, for any goods). I know Apple products have a 12 month warranty, but are subject to at least a 24 month warranty/guarantee given the 'reasonableness' test. I'd find it hard to believe that a reasonableness test would find that a $500 iPhone is expected to function for 2 years, but a $150,000 luxury vehicle is only expected to function for 12 months.
    - TylerE 10y ago
      http://www.mynrma.com.au/motoring-services/buy-sell/buying-advice/new-used/used-cars/warranties.htm http://www.mynrma.com.au/motoring-services/buy-sell/buying-a...
      - cynix 10y ago
        The page doesn't really explain what a "reasonable" warranty period is. For example, the $200,000 Model S comes with a shorter warranty (4 years) than a $15,000 Mitsubishi Mirage (5 years). Is that reasonable? Should I expect 10 times longer warranty because the car is 10 times more expensive?
  - sjwright 10y ago
    What you are talking about is the "dealer guarantee" provision, which requires car dealers to repair or make good, at their own expense, any defective vehicles they sell within that time period. This is in addition to the manufacturer's warranty period or the manufacturer's responsibility under Australian Consumer Law. Australian Consumer Law covers "reasonable expectations" of fitness for purpose and is generally understood to comfortably exceed the typical three year warranty period. https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees/consumer-guarantees https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees... http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/ftw/consumers/motor_vehicles/warranties.page http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/ftw/consumers/motor_vehicl... http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-06-07/broken-but-out-of-warranty-you-still-have-rights/2749924 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-06-07/broken-but-out-of-warr... http://www.caradvice.com.au/345004/what-is-the-australian-consumer-law-is-my-car-still-covered-outside-of-the-manufacturer-warranty/ http://www.caradvice.com.au/345004/what-is-the-australian-co...
    - lsaferite 10y ago
      Well, seeing how Tesla has a 4 year/50k mile warranty plus an 8 year/∞ mile battery and powertrain warranty, I'd say it's longer than the AU statutory periods, no?
      - inopinatus 10y ago
        There's no quantitative statutory period on manufacturing defects in the Australian Consumer Law. The language is of a test of the expectations of a "reasonable consumer", which can be (and has been) interpreted generously by the courts. The dealer warranty for cars is a separate and mandatory guarantee, don't conflate the two. My favourite summary of the situation is actually Apple's. Read http://www.apple.com/au/legal/statutory-warranty/ http://www.apple.com/au/legal/statutory-warranty/ and pay attention to the language used for claim periods. NB: the Australian regulator has teeth and is not afraid to use them, but their enforcement is selective. They tend to go after big fish like supermarkets, major retailers, energy companies.
NeutronBoy 10y ago
I wonder what the consequences for refusing to sign the NDA would be? Under consumer law, they would still be responsible for fixing your car, especially if it's a safety issue.
- Spooky23 10y ago
  Since there is no independent dealer network, sole source repair centers, sole source parts network, and a computer logging any unauthorized activity which may void the warranty, you are probably fucked.
- TylerE 10y ago
  A goodwill repair means one done outside the normal warranty period. So, no, they don't have to.
  - NeutronBoy 10y ago
    In many countries the warranty period isn't binding - the product is entitled to repair as for as long as the 'expected lifetime' of the product. For a luxury car like a Model S, you'd be well within that period still, especially given that they're being described as 'premature failures'. > The safety regulator is examining the Model S suspension — the springs, joints and other components that connect a car to its wheels — for possible defects that could be causing premature failures. Also, the last thing Tesla need at the moment is cars failing just outside the warranty period and then not repairing them - as noted, it just highlights their lack of support network and lack of general repairability at the moment.
    - CamperBob2 10y ago
      In many countries the warranty period isn't binding - the product is entitled to repair as for as long as the 'expected lifetime' of the product. What would be an example of such a country... and what does it cost to buy an average car there?
      - 10y ago
chc 10y ago
As far as I can tell, it's not an NDA to have your car fixed. The New York Times article omits some details from the original Daily Kanban article, giving a slightly different impression. Based on the original article, the NDA appears to be attached to a discount on out-of-warranty repairs.
wmeredith 10y ago
It was signed in return for free work. It's quid pro quo. They could just pay to fix their car.
- brokenmachine 10y ago
  Free work on a prematurely failed suspension. It's understandable that a car model may have problems but Tesla must do a recall as it's a larger issue. Getting customers to sign NDA's sounds like a cover-up to me.

It is very worrying that a car company would expect customers to sign an NDA to have their faulty cars fixed. That practice should certainly be illegal, in the interest of public safety.

inopinatus 10y ago

IANAL but I suspect it would be a violation of consumer laws in some jurisdictions where Tesla does business. E.g. Australia where limited/conditional warranty clauses are overridden by statutory consumer rights.

honkhonkpants 10y ago
Statutory rights are also superior to warranty disclaimers in every state of the USA, although such rights vary from state to state, and there are federal statutes as well.
TylerE 10y ago
Australia's statutory rights extends for 12 months/20k kms. Most factory warranties are way longer than that.
- NeutronBoy 10y ago
  Do you have a citation for that? (genuinely curious - I tried to find a list of what an 'acceptable period' for lifetime would be but couldn't find one, for any goods). I know Apple products have a 12 month warranty, but are subject to at least a 24 month warranty/guarantee given the 'reasonableness' test. I'd find it hard to believe that a reasonableness test would find that a $500 iPhone is expected to function for 2 years, but a $150,000 luxury vehicle is only expected to function for 12 months.
  - TylerE 10y ago
    http://www.mynrma.com.au/motoring-services/buy-sell/buying-advice/new-used/used-cars/warranties.htm http://www.mynrma.com.au/motoring-services/buy-sell/buying-a...
    - cynix 10y ago
      The page doesn't really explain what a "reasonable" warranty period is. For example, the $200,000 Model S comes with a shorter warranty (4 years) than a $15,000 Mitsubishi Mirage (5 years). Is that reasonable? Should I expect 10 times longer warranty because the car is 10 times more expensive?
- sjwright 10y ago
  What you are talking about is the "dealer guarantee" provision, which requires car dealers to repair or make good, at their own expense, any defective vehicles they sell within that time period. This is in addition to the manufacturer's warranty period or the manufacturer's responsibility under Australian Consumer Law. Australian Consumer Law covers "reasonable expectations" of fitness for purpose and is generally understood to comfortably exceed the typical three year warranty period. https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees/consumer-guarantees https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees... http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/ftw/consumers/motor_vehicles/warranties.page http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/ftw/consumers/motor_vehicl... http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-06-07/broken-but-out-of-warranty-you-still-have-rights/2749924 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-06-07/broken-but-out-of-warr... http://www.caradvice.com.au/345004/what-is-the-australian-consumer-law-is-my-car-still-covered-outside-of-the-manufacturer-warranty/ http://www.caradvice.com.au/345004/what-is-the-australian-co...
  - lsaferite 10y ago
    Well, seeing how Tesla has a 4 year/50k mile warranty plus an 8 year/∞ mile battery and powertrain warranty, I'd say it's longer than the AU statutory periods, no?
    - inopinatus 10y ago
      There's no quantitative statutory period on manufacturing defects in the Australian Consumer Law. The language is of a test of the expectations of a "reasonable consumer", which can be (and has been) interpreted generously by the courts. The dealer warranty for cars is a separate and mandatory guarantee, don't conflate the two. My favourite summary of the situation is actually Apple's. Read http://www.apple.com/au/legal/statutory-warranty/ http://www.apple.com/au/legal/statutory-warranty/ and pay attention to the language used for claim periods. NB: the Australian regulator has teeth and is not afraid to use them, but their enforcement is selective. They tend to go after big fish like supermarkets, major retailers, energy companies.

NeutronBoy 10y ago

I wonder what the consequences for refusing to sign the NDA would be? Under consumer law, they would still be responsible for fixing your car, especially if it's a safety issue.

Spooky23 10y ago
Since there is no independent dealer network, sole source repair centers, sole source parts network, and a computer logging any unauthorized activity which may void the warranty, you are probably fucked.
TylerE 10y ago
A goodwill repair means one done outside the normal warranty period. So, no, they don't have to.
- NeutronBoy 10y ago
  In many countries the warranty period isn't binding - the product is entitled to repair as for as long as the 'expected lifetime' of the product. For a luxury car like a Model S, you'd be well within that period still, especially given that they're being described as 'premature failures'. > The safety regulator is examining the Model S suspension — the springs, joints and other components that connect a car to its wheels — for possible defects that could be causing premature failures. Also, the last thing Tesla need at the moment is cars failing just outside the warranty period and then not repairing them - as noted, it just highlights their lack of support network and lack of general repairability at the moment.
  - CamperBob2 10y ago
    In many countries the warranty period isn't binding - the product is entitled to repair as for as long as the 'expected lifetime' of the product. What would be an example of such a country... and what does it cost to buy an average car there?
    - 10y ago

chc 10y ago

As far as I can tell, it's not an NDA to have your car fixed. The New York Times article omits some details from the original Daily Kanban article, giving a slightly different impression. Based on the original article, the NDA appears to be attached to a discount on out-of-warranty repairs.

wmeredith 10y ago

It was signed in return for free work. It's quid pro quo. They could just pay to fix their car.

brokenmachine 10y ago
Free work on a prematurely failed suspension. It's understandable that a car model may have problems but Tesla must do a recall as it's a larger issue. Getting customers to sign NDA's sounds like a cover-up to me.