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As someone trying to hire web developers, it looks to me like Bootcamps are more like finishing school than trade school. Candidates that come out of a bootcamp

by cwp 10y ago

As someone trying to hire web developers, it looks to me like Bootcamps are more like finishing school than trade school. Candidates that come out of a bootcamp have learned how to signal membership in the Silicon Valley in-group. Their resumes have all the right keywords, and refer to "projects" they've worked on, built with all the frameworks and tools currently in fashion. They've practiced their interview technique and can talk confidently about continuous integration or opine about React vs Angular or describe how well they cooperate with their teammates. If they don't get the job, they'll politely ask for advice on how they can do better, and maybe ask for a coffee date, so they can learn about the industry and how to find a mentor. If you don't look closely at the resume or ask explicitly in the interview, you might think they have actual work experience, but they don't, it's all just coursework. So I'm a bit ambivalent. Yeah, we desperately need more developers in the tech world. Yeah, startup culture is ridiculously tribal and unfairly biased against those who don't know the secret handshakes. But 3 months does not a developer make. When I'm hiring, I now look very skeptically at candidates that have been to a bootcamp. Experience has taught me that interviewing them is usually a waste of time.

antisthenes 10y ago
> So I'm a bit ambivalent. Yeah, we desperately need more developers in the tech world. Yeah, startup culture is ridiculously tribal and unfairly biased against those who don't know the secret handshakes. But 3 months does not a developer make. When I'm hiring, I now look very skeptically at candidates that have been to a bootcamp. Experience has taught me that interviewing them is usually a waste of time. That's all the more reason these bootcamps should be way more transparent than they are. There are people for whom the cost of attending such a bootcamp is enormous - they might spend their entire life savings or finance the attendance of such a camp, putting them in a bad debt spiral. And while many of the camps are selective and only hire people with previous development experience, I'm sure there are some with more 'flexible' standards so to speak that will happily take your money, regardless of your background. One of the things they could do to make it more transparent is to signal that software development may not be for everyone - just like being a doctor or an athlete or some other profession that requires extreme passion and dedication.
mathgeek 10y ago
> Experience has taught me that interviewing them is usually a waste of time. So we have a situation where hopeful individuals spend a ton of money on questionable bootcamps for the promise of a shot at a job... and the employers think interviewing said individuals is a waste of time. That's a lovely thought. :/
- xemdetia 10y ago
  It's the same thing that happens with tech certifications which are providing a similar service. It often doesn't tell you anything unless you happen to know and are familiar with the ones that have value. It does make it harder to read a resume or get a good feel for a candidate. They may be able to say the right things but without the true insight that makes it valuable. It often can land you with someone who understands the motions but didn't develop the intuition. It's one of those weird self selecting groups- the people who think they need a bootcamp or a technical certification to get the job might not not be the right type of person to begin with, is instructed the wrong sort of way, or ends up with the illusion that they are near the end of their learning rather then just starting at the beginning. On the other hand there are people who really make the most of it and come out extraordinarily better. But those top of class folks are by definition a minority. Other people succeed, but don't exceed. Other people pass. It's the same reason why some people devalue college graduates.
- bogomipz 10y ago
  What's wrong with that thought? That seems to be the interviewers genuine experience.
up_and_up 10y ago
IMO, programming is learned through repeated banging your head against hard problems for a long period of time. 3 months cannot achieve this. My exp has shown me that bootcampers are well-versed in hype and have built applications under perfect conditions, which as a practice, has little value.
gaius 10y ago
Yeah, we desperately need more developers in the tech world Well, management needs more cheap workers early in their careers who can be easily exploited with the prospect of 0.01% share options, but that's not the same thing. If there genuinely was a shortage of workers, there would be no ageism, but it's rampant. Zuck stands up and says "young people are smarter" and no-one bats an eyelid...
- cwp 10y ago
  See the sentence right after that one. In the best cases the Bay Area tech community is cliquey, in the worst case it's illegally discriminatory. The recent fashion for founder-friendly term sheets hasn't really extended to employee-friendly employment agreements. Sure, I get that. And yet, it's also true that there aren't enough developers. I've dealt with hundreds of candidates over the past year. There are a few who rejected an offer, presumably because they had a better one some where else. Most, though, are not qualified, and most of those that are, accept an offer somewhere else before completing their interview. As an experienced engineer, I'm happy that it's a seller's market for tech labour. Someday I'll be on the other side of the table. But damn, there are so many things we could accomplish if there were more of us.
  - bogomipz 10y ago
    I was intrigued by your comment: "The recent fashion for founder-friendly term sheets hasn't really extended to employee-friendly employment agreements." What do mean by "founder-friendly term sheets" and "employee-friendly employment agreements"? Besides the "what" of those two thing how do those things relate? Or how should they? Thanks.

by cwp 10y ago

antisthenes 10y ago

> So I'm a bit ambivalent. Yeah, we desperately need more developers in the tech world. Yeah, startup culture is ridiculously tribal and unfairly biased against those who don't know the secret handshakes. But 3 months does not a developer make. When I'm hiring, I now look very skeptically at candidates that have been to a bootcamp. Experience has taught me that interviewing them is usually a waste of time. That's all the more reason these bootcamps should be way more transparent than they are. There are people for whom the cost of attending such a bootcamp is enormous - they might spend their entire life savings or finance the attendance of such a camp, putting them in a bad debt spiral. And while many of the camps are selective and only hire people with previous development experience, I'm sure there are some with more 'flexible' standards so to speak that will happily take your money, regardless of your background. One of the things they could do to make it more transparent is to signal that software development may not be for everyone - just like being a doctor or an athlete or some other profession that requires extreme passion and dedication.

mathgeek 10y ago

> Experience has taught me that interviewing them is usually a waste of time. So we have a situation where hopeful individuals spend a ton of money on questionable bootcamps for the promise of a shot at a job... and the employers think interviewing said individuals is a waste of time. That's a lovely thought. :/

xemdetia 10y ago
It's the same thing that happens with tech certifications which are providing a similar service. It often doesn't tell you anything unless you happen to know and are familiar with the ones that have value. It does make it harder to read a resume or get a good feel for a candidate. They may be able to say the right things but without the true insight that makes it valuable. It often can land you with someone who understands the motions but didn't develop the intuition. It's one of those weird self selecting groups- the people who think they need a bootcamp or a technical certification to get the job might not not be the right type of person to begin with, is instructed the wrong sort of way, or ends up with the illusion that they are near the end of their learning rather then just starting at the beginning. On the other hand there are people who really make the most of it and come out extraordinarily better. But those top of class folks are by definition a minority. Other people succeed, but don't exceed. Other people pass. It's the same reason why some people devalue college graduates.
bogomipz 10y ago
What's wrong with that thought? That seems to be the interviewers genuine experience.

up_and_up 10y ago

IMO, programming is learned through repeated banging your head against hard problems for a long period of time. 3 months cannot achieve this. My exp has shown me that bootcampers are well-versed in hype and have built applications under perfect conditions, which as a practice, has little value.

gaius 10y ago

Yeah, we desperately need more developers in the tech world Well, management needs more cheap workers early in their careers who can be easily exploited with the prospect of 0.01% share options, but that's not the same thing. If there genuinely was a shortage of workers, there would be no ageism, but it's rampant. Zuck stands up and says "young people are smarter" and no-one bats an eyelid...

cwp 10y ago
See the sentence right after that one. In the best cases the Bay Area tech community is cliquey, in the worst case it's illegally discriminatory. The recent fashion for founder-friendly term sheets hasn't really extended to employee-friendly employment agreements. Sure, I get that. And yet, it's also true that there aren't enough developers. I've dealt with hundreds of candidates over the past year. There are a few who rejected an offer, presumably because they had a better one some where else. Most, though, are not qualified, and most of those that are, accept an offer somewhere else before completing their interview. As an experienced engineer, I'm happy that it's a seller's market for tech labour. Someday I'll be on the other side of the table. But damn, there are so many things we could accomplish if there were more of us.
- bogomipz 10y ago
  I was intrigued by your comment: "The recent fashion for founder-friendly term sheets hasn't really extended to employee-friendly employment agreements." What do mean by "founder-friendly term sheets" and "employee-friendly employment agreements"? Besides the "what" of those two thing how do those things relate? Or how should they? Thanks.