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A couple of comments. Firstly "under God" appears to have been added in 1954. I was of the understanding that the founding fathers envisioned a secular state -

by ErrantX 17y ago

A couple of comments. Firstly "under God" appears to have been added in 1954. I was of the understanding that the founding fathers envisioned a secular state - so "under God" appears not necessarily part of that vision. Were I required to recite a pledge each morning that included that section I expect I would politely decline :) Trouble is I know Americans who have done that (politely used one of the original versions) and then been accused of not being patriotic and in one case quite badly threatened.

DanielBMarkham 17y ago
Actually the founding fathers were much less religious than current Americas, but still viewed the state and society in classical Christian terms. In other words, they viewed society as secular because the Christians (mostly) who inhabited the country at the time had no stomach for the problems associated with having the state fight religious wars. Everybody just wanted to have their own version of protestantism and leave each other alone (except for friendly persuasion, of course) So the Congress opened with a prayer. Most of the founding fathers attended church. Political speeches were, for a very long time, characterized by religious imagery and overtones. Catholics were feared when they started arriving. etc. The country was about as Christian as it could get -- save for the establishment of a national religion, which everybody knew was a bad idea. But even that was only at a national level. Massachusetts had an established state church for some time after the constitution was signed. Somehow the idea that the government shouldn't endorse a church has evolved into the idea that the government and church shouldn't have anything at all to do with each other -- probably a good idea but not at all what was intended by the founders. It's an interesting study on how the same language can be construed in various ways by various generations.
- dantheman 17y ago
  The founding fathers were mostly deists and not Christians/protestants.
  - DanielBMarkham 17y ago
    This is a true statement, yet incomplete. Part of the problem is that you're setting up a false dichotomy between Christian and Deist. It wasn't as religious as time as other times in United States history. But Christianity was the backdrop for most all deism at that time. Deists picked the parts of the story they liked and left the other parts. Jefferson, for instance, edited his own bible. John Adams is a good example of the general type of thinking: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Adams#Religious_views http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Adams#Religious_views Thomas Paine was probably the poster child for atheists among the famous people of that time. He was a real firecracker. Most of the founders, however, were just men of their age, and people of that age attended church and used Christian ideas and imagery extensively.
    - ErrantX 17y ago
      I agree with your analysis for the most part. Except that much of the founding documentation/policy does not include religious imagery; and given the context (as you point out) that seems fairly deliberate.
      - DanielBMarkham 17y ago
        Yep. And where it is included it's a deity that is easily transposed on to many religions -- a Diest's diety. The God of Nature. "All men are endowed by their Creator", etc. Random Googling brought me to this site: http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html Perhaps because these men were determined that differences in religion would not be a big deal, they were easily able to have prayer before each meeting without anybody getting offended. I'm pretty sure that the idea of _no_ religion in any kind of government event wouldn't have worked at all for these guys, though. Paine was "out there" and fiercely advocated it -- but he was the exception rather than the rule, and France was the worse for it, probably.
        ErrantX 17y ago
        Great link, thanks. > hese men were determined that differences in religion would not be a big deal I always see it as a little step further than that. They saw it as irrelevant to the governance of a country. Perhaps personally atheism wouldn't have sat well with them (and I postulate that atheism was still new then and so not really widely considered) but I doubt it would have worried them to have atheists in government :) I suspect myself of having somewhat rose tinted specs though :) (the main point, I think, is that I don't believe any of the founding fathers would have burn't atheists at the stake - which is enough)

by ErrantX 17y ago

DanielBMarkham 17y ago

Actually the founding fathers were much less religious than current Americas, but still viewed the state and society in classical Christian terms. In other words, they viewed society as secular because the Christians (mostly) who inhabited the country at the time had no stomach for the problems associated with having the state fight religious wars. Everybody just wanted to have their own version of protestantism and leave each other alone (except for friendly persuasion, of course) So the Congress opened with a prayer. Most of the founding fathers attended church. Political speeches were, for a very long time, characterized by religious imagery and overtones. Catholics were feared when they started arriving. etc. The country was about as Christian as it could get -- save for the establishment of a national religion, which everybody knew was a bad idea. But even that was only at a national level. Massachusetts had an established state church for some time after the constitution was signed. Somehow the idea that the government shouldn't endorse a church has evolved into the idea that the government and church shouldn't have anything at all to do with each other -- probably a good idea but not at all what was intended by the founders. It's an interesting study on how the same language can be construed in various ways by various generations.

dantheman 17y ago
The founding fathers were mostly deists and not Christians/protestants.
- DanielBMarkham 17y ago
  This is a true statement, yet incomplete. Part of the problem is that you're setting up a false dichotomy between Christian and Deist. It wasn't as religious as time as other times in United States history. But Christianity was the backdrop for most all deism at that time. Deists picked the parts of the story they liked and left the other parts. Jefferson, for instance, edited his own bible. John Adams is a good example of the general type of thinking: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Adams#Religious_views http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Adams#Religious_views Thomas Paine was probably the poster child for atheists among the famous people of that time. He was a real firecracker. Most of the founders, however, were just men of their age, and people of that age attended church and used Christian ideas and imagery extensively.
  - ErrantX 17y ago
    I agree with your analysis for the most part. Except that much of the founding documentation/policy does not include religious imagery; and given the context (as you point out) that seems fairly deliberate.
    - DanielBMarkham 17y ago
      Yep. And where it is included it's a deity that is easily transposed on to many religions -- a Diest's diety. The God of Nature. "All men are endowed by their Creator", etc. Random Googling brought me to this site: http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html Perhaps because these men were determined that differences in religion would not be a big deal, they were easily able to have prayer before each meeting without anybody getting offended. I'm pretty sure that the idea of _no_ religion in any kind of government event wouldn't have worked at all for these guys, though. Paine was "out there" and fiercely advocated it -- but he was the exception rather than the rule, and France was the worse for it, probably.
      - ErrantX 17y ago
        Great link, thanks. > hese men were determined that differences in religion would not be a big deal I always see it as a little step further than that. They saw it as irrelevant to the governance of a country. Perhaps personally atheism wouldn't have sat well with them (and I postulate that atheism was still new then and so not really widely considered) but I doubt it would have worried them to have atheists in government :) I suspect myself of having somewhat rose tinted specs though :) (the main point, I think, is that I don't believe any of the founding fathers would have burn't atheists at the stake - which is enough)