8 ms·

Microsoft is amazing. Top notch work across the board. Not all of their initiatives are aligned with hacker ideology but they are hands down developer friendly.

Microsoft is amazing. Top notch work across the board. Not all of their initiatives are aligned with hacker ideology but they are hands down developer friendly. Ballmer always made that important to know. I personally have the utmost faith in them. Their development tools are unequaled.

bschwindHN 10y ago
> they are hands down developer friendly > Their development tools are unequaled Have you ever done any cross-platform C++ programming? That might change your opinion a bit.
- coderdude 10y ago
  Because Visual Studio isn't on every platform yet? The answer to your question is yes, btw. I spend most of my time in Ubuntu and I've also been forced to get my own projects to compile on my MacBook. It sucks, if that's what you were getting at. At least make a point.
  - bschwindHN 10y ago
    It's taken Visual Studio quite some time to get up to feature parity for things like C++11/14/17. A year or two ago was a super frustrating time to be writing modern C++ that supported Windows. Oh, I can't use that feature here. Oh, this networking API call is slightly different from every other platform. Oh, this same function exists but the Windows team changed the name to be camel case instead of using underscores. And if you're working on a cross-platform project, it's probably using CMake or something similar. The development cycle of `cmake .. && make` is simple and easy. As far as I could tell, Windows builds were not as straightforward. It's been awhile so maybe they've improved it, but I would hardly call their developer tools "unequaled" I just want to install Clang in a straightforward manner, call the above-mentioned `cmake .. && make`, and have an exe waiting for me. Is that possible now? It wasn't in the past which is why I'm highly suspicious of your "hands down developer friendly" comment. Windows always seems to be the platform that has to do things slightly different, and has offered the most friction when developing projects that run on OS X, Linux, and Windows. EDIT: I would also like to add that most CI services offer at least G++ or Clang++. AppVeyor seems to support Windows builds with MSVC but isn't free. This is yet another hindrance to smooth cross-platform development.
    - coderdude 10y ago
      I laugh when you bring up compatibility issues because man have I grappled with them, too. You won't hear me say they're on the bleeding edge of c++ standards. It's their IDE that compels me to speak on their behalf. I do get what you're driving at, though.
      - bschwindHN 10y ago
        That's fair. I first used Visual Studio with C# and loved the debugger and code refactoring tools. And I use it occasionally when logging statements just aren't enough in C++. So in that regard, yes their IDE is one of the best, but their platform sort of diminishes the developer-friendliness of the whole experience when developing on Windows. I need to check out CLion again, haven't tried it since they released one of the first versions.
    - pjmlp 10y ago
      Visual Studio is the commercial compiler with the best support for things like C++11/14/17. Have you ever used other ones? Some of them on the embedded space don't even support C++11! Ever you ever tried cmake besides BSD, GNU/Linux, Windows? There are lots of other platforms out there, have you evaluated the experience on those platforms against Windows?
      - bschwindHN 10y ago
        Is it now? Then I need to try it again. Some of my claims are probably outdated at this point if VS has improved a lot. 1-2 years ago their C++11 support was behind G++ and Clang. I'm speaking mostly from a gamedev perspective, I don't write embedded C++. Same story with CMake, only used it on platforms where someone would/could play a game. Does Windows offer a superior development platform when doing embedded work compared to BSD/Linux/OS X? I prefer to work in a general text editor alongside simple command line build tools, which probably explains my dislike of most Windows dev tools.
        pjmlp 10y ago
- stormbrew 10y ago
  I haven't done much real work on Windows in like 10 years (before which it was most of what I did) and I'd still kill for an IDE for C++ half as usable as even VS6 was on Linux. Particularly when it comes to integrated debugging, what we have on other platforms pales in comparison imo.
  - afsina 10y ago
    CLion
    - stormbrew 10y ago
      I use it. It's not even close, even if it is the best yet.
- pjmlp 10y ago
  I did, back in the day C compilers were still trying to catch up with C89 and C++98 ink was still in flow. It is all wonders when your view of cross-platform C++ programming means only using only gcc or clang across BSD, GNU/Linux or Mac OS X. However things aren't so rosy when cross-platform C++ programming means the official OS C and C++ SDK, with their own view of what POSIX APIs they are supposed to offer specially the ones that leave the implementations some freedom about undefined behaviors. If they offer POSIX APIs at all.
arcticfox 10y ago
Man, I worked there (so it's in my best interest for them to have a good reputation) and I don't find this remotely true. The developer tools are nice, but I'd hardly say Microsoft's other work is "top notch across the board". I've had major problems with Windows, Xbox, Azure, and more...
- coderdude 10y ago
  You got to see how the sausage is made, so to speak. I'm still a fan of the end products that I've dealt with. They have a ton of products.
yugai 10y ago
That must be a PR comment. I have never heard such overwhelmingly positive words about MS.
dang 10y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11867379 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11867379 and marked it off-topic.

bschwindHN 10y ago

> they are hands down developer friendly > Their development tools are unequaled Have you ever done any cross-platform C++ programming? That might change your opinion a bit.

coderdude 10y ago
Because Visual Studio isn't on every platform yet? The answer to your question is yes, btw. I spend most of my time in Ubuntu and I've also been forced to get my own projects to compile on my MacBook. It sucks, if that's what you were getting at. At least make a point.
- bschwindHN 10y ago
  It's taken Visual Studio quite some time to get up to feature parity for things like C++11/14/17. A year or two ago was a super frustrating time to be writing modern C++ that supported Windows. Oh, I can't use that feature here. Oh, this networking API call is slightly different from every other platform. Oh, this same function exists but the Windows team changed the name to be camel case instead of using underscores. And if you're working on a cross-platform project, it's probably using CMake or something similar. The development cycle of `cmake .. && make` is simple and easy. As far as I could tell, Windows builds were not as straightforward. It's been awhile so maybe they've improved it, but I would hardly call their developer tools "unequaled" I just want to install Clang in a straightforward manner, call the above-mentioned `cmake .. && make`, and have an exe waiting for me. Is that possible now? It wasn't in the past which is why I'm highly suspicious of your "hands down developer friendly" comment. Windows always seems to be the platform that has to do things slightly different, and has offered the most friction when developing projects that run on OS X, Linux, and Windows. EDIT: I would also like to add that most CI services offer at least G++ or Clang++. AppVeyor seems to support Windows builds with MSVC but isn't free. This is yet another hindrance to smooth cross-platform development.
  - coderdude 10y ago
    I laugh when you bring up compatibility issues because man have I grappled with them, too. You won't hear me say they're on the bleeding edge of c++ standards. It's their IDE that compels me to speak on their behalf. I do get what you're driving at, though.
    - bschwindHN 10y ago
      That's fair. I first used Visual Studio with C# and loved the debugger and code refactoring tools. And I use it occasionally when logging statements just aren't enough in C++. So in that regard, yes their IDE is one of the best, but their platform sort of diminishes the developer-friendliness of the whole experience when developing on Windows. I need to check out CLion again, haven't tried it since they released one of the first versions.
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    Visual Studio is the commercial compiler with the best support for things like C++11/14/17. Have you ever used other ones? Some of them on the embedded space don't even support C++11! Ever you ever tried cmake besides BSD, GNU/Linux, Windows? There are lots of other platforms out there, have you evaluated the experience on those platforms against Windows?
    - bschwindHN 10y ago
      Is it now? Then I need to try it again. Some of my claims are probably outdated at this point if VS has improved a lot. 1-2 years ago their C++11 support was behind G++ and Clang. I'm speaking mostly from a gamedev perspective, I don't write embedded C++. Same story with CMake, only used it on platforms where someone would/could play a game. Does Windows offer a superior development platform when doing embedded work compared to BSD/Linux/OS X? I prefer to work in a general text editor alongside simple command line build tools, which probably explains my dislike of most Windows dev tools.
      - pjmlp 10y ago
stormbrew 10y ago
I haven't done much real work on Windows in like 10 years (before which it was most of what I did) and I'd still kill for an IDE for C++ half as usable as even VS6 was on Linux. Particularly when it comes to integrated debugging, what we have on other platforms pales in comparison imo.
- afsina 10y ago
  CLion
  - stormbrew 10y ago
    I use it. It's not even close, even if it is the best yet.
pjmlp 10y ago
I did, back in the day C compilers were still trying to catch up with C89 and C++98 ink was still in flow. It is all wonders when your view of cross-platform C++ programming means only using only gcc or clang across BSD, GNU/Linux or Mac OS X. However things aren't so rosy when cross-platform C++ programming means the official OS C and C++ SDK, with their own view of what POSIX APIs they are supposed to offer specially the ones that leave the implementations some freedom about undefined behaviors. If they offer POSIX APIs at all.

arcticfox 10y ago

Man, I worked there (so it's in my best interest for them to have a good reputation) and I don't find this remotely true. The developer tools are nice, but I'd hardly say Microsoft's other work is "top notch across the board". I've had major problems with Windows, Xbox, Azure, and more...

coderdude 10y ago
You got to see how the sausage is made, so to speak. I'm still a fan of the end products that I've dealt with. They have a ton of products.

yugai 10y ago

That must be a PR comment. I have never heard such overwhelmingly positive words about MS.

dang 10y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11867379 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11867379 and marked it off-topic.