5 ms·

I have a simple, genuine question. Why do smart people from countries with the highest quality of life in the world want to immigrate to the US?

starkfist 17y ago
I have a number of Dutch friends. They moved to California for the weather, job opportunities, and to escape the attitudes of their families and fellow countrymen. These are also the same reasons people move from other states within the USA to California.
barrkel 17y ago
There may be an inverse correspondence between risk appetite and quality of life at the high end. Many European countries have a fairly high degree of social cohesion, resulting in a kind of contract between the state and its people: reduce the downside risks of life in return for more regulation and higher taxes. Part of reducing the downside risk is a kind of conservatism, a maintenance of the status quo, with social bargaining and efforts to reduce the impact, speed and consequentially the profitability of change. But if you're younger, have less to lose, and more appetite for risk, this can look unappealing. It acts as a kind of club that you have to break into, for one thing - too many young people in Europe work on the basis of short-term contracts rather than full-time pensionable positions. FWIW, speaking as an Irishman living in the UK and holder of a H-1B visa, there's a lot to dislike about the Bay Area too, some of which has informed my decision not to move there (as yet). There's something about it as a place to live (outside of work) that feels like a hastily assembled holiday resort, with wooden buildings (I know, earthquakes), car orientation, shallowness of culture and institutionalization of recreation.
- eplanit 17y ago
  I think we're dancing around the fundamentals: Capitalism vs. Socialism. Yes, socialism is about social contracts at the expense of greatly reduced freedom for business owners and also career-builders. Freedom = Risk. Potential for creating wealth and new markets come from Free economies. Great inventions do not come from people toiling in "full-time pensionable positions". Like you say, in order to truly grow they need to break out of that world and come to a place that allows their entrepreneurial skills to grow. Wooden buildings are a problem? With regard to the rest of your complaints -- keep in mind it's a compliment to a superpower to blame all the world's ills on it. For such a small population we sure do rule it, eh?
  - barrkel 17y ago
    I don't think Europe is unfree, or broadly socialist - there are some social compromises, but it's not non-capitalist. And it's not like the US has a free economy either - there are plenty of restrictions, tax breaks / subsidies, etc. For example, creating a limited company in Ireland cost me no more than 200 EUR or so and a couple of days. Most governmental administration was in the form of an annual return, but providing accounts isn't necessary for the first return. You send off your income tax monthly, and corporation tax (12.5%) yearly. And VAT isn't a concern until you hit a revenue threshold. The bigger problems in Ireland are networking, partnership opportunities, etc. From what I've read of obligations on employers in California, the going is somewhat rougher. For example, I see that CA has an 800 USD annual tax for the equivalent, LLCs. WRT to your boasts of ruling the world, I don't think it quite works that way. Current international trends are quite Westphalian in nature - the US military can't be stretched much further and soft power is fairly easily ignored. See e.g. http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2010/03/what_does_american_weakness_mean_europe http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2010/03/what_does... for some discussion of the limitations.
eplanit 17y ago
I guess, because as their prospective investor states: "Their likelihood of success in the Netherlands is close to zero". But to further parse your snarky bait: Maybe they're not so smart; or, maybe their estimation of "highest quality of life in the world" differs from yours; or, maybe it's because the U.S. is a wonderful place to start and grow businesses and families.
pg 17y ago
In this case it's not countries people are moving to so much as cities. The answer is the same as the reason why actors from rich countries (and other parts of the US) want to move to LA.
benl 17y ago
Here's another genuine way of asking the same question. Why do people continue to believe that European social democracies have the highest quality of life, when people vote with their feet in the other direction?
- Retric 17y ago
  An average speaks nothing about the standard deviation. The minimum quality of life in the US is far lower than many European countries, but young, educated, intelligent, and motivated people are rarely at the bottom. PS: Consider the AIDS rate in Washington DC at ~3%. "Our rates are higher than West Africa" http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/14/AR2009031402176.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03... However, other areas of the country are way below that, even as other groups are much worse. "Black men, with an infection rate of nearly 7 percent, carry the weight of the disease, according to the report, which also underscores that the District's HIV and AIDS population is aging. Almost 1 in 10 residents between the ages of 40 and 49 has the virus."

starkfist 17y ago

I have a number of Dutch friends. They moved to California for the weather, job opportunities, and to escape the attitudes of their families and fellow countrymen. These are also the same reasons people move from other states within the USA to California.

barrkel 17y ago

There may be an inverse correspondence between risk appetite and quality of life at the high end. Many European countries have a fairly high degree of social cohesion, resulting in a kind of contract between the state and its people: reduce the downside risks of life in return for more regulation and higher taxes. Part of reducing the downside risk is a kind of conservatism, a maintenance of the status quo, with social bargaining and efforts to reduce the impact, speed and consequentially the profitability of change. But if you're younger, have less to lose, and more appetite for risk, this can look unappealing. It acts as a kind of club that you have to break into, for one thing - too many young people in Europe work on the basis of short-term contracts rather than full-time pensionable positions. FWIW, speaking as an Irishman living in the UK and holder of a H-1B visa, there's a lot to dislike about the Bay Area too, some of which has informed my decision not to move there (as yet). There's something about it as a place to live (outside of work) that feels like a hastily assembled holiday resort, with wooden buildings (I know, earthquakes), car orientation, shallowness of culture and institutionalization of recreation.

eplanit 17y ago
I think we're dancing around the fundamentals: Capitalism vs. Socialism. Yes, socialism is about social contracts at the expense of greatly reduced freedom for business owners and also career-builders. Freedom = Risk. Potential for creating wealth and new markets come from Free economies. Great inventions do not come from people toiling in "full-time pensionable positions". Like you say, in order to truly grow they need to break out of that world and come to a place that allows their entrepreneurial skills to grow. Wooden buildings are a problem? With regard to the rest of your complaints -- keep in mind it's a compliment to a superpower to blame all the world's ills on it. For such a small population we sure do rule it, eh?
- barrkel 17y ago
  I don't think Europe is unfree, or broadly socialist - there are some social compromises, but it's not non-capitalist. And it's not like the US has a free economy either - there are plenty of restrictions, tax breaks / subsidies, etc. For example, creating a limited company in Ireland cost me no more than 200 EUR or so and a couple of days. Most governmental administration was in the form of an annual return, but providing accounts isn't necessary for the first return. You send off your income tax monthly, and corporation tax (12.5%) yearly. And VAT isn't a concern until you hit a revenue threshold. The bigger problems in Ireland are networking, partnership opportunities, etc. From what I've read of obligations on employers in California, the going is somewhat rougher. For example, I see that CA has an 800 USD annual tax for the equivalent, LLCs. WRT to your boasts of ruling the world, I don't think it quite works that way. Current international trends are quite Westphalian in nature - the US military can't be stretched much further and soft power is fairly easily ignored. See e.g. http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2010/03/what_does_american_weakness_mean_europe http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2010/03/what_does... for some discussion of the limitations.

eplanit 17y ago

I guess, because as their prospective investor states: "Their likelihood of success in the Netherlands is close to zero". But to further parse your snarky bait: Maybe they're not so smart; or, maybe their estimation of "highest quality of life in the world" differs from yours; or, maybe it's because the U.S. is a wonderful place to start and grow businesses and families.

pg 17y ago

In this case it's not countries people are moving to so much as cities. The answer is the same as the reason why actors from rich countries (and other parts of the US) want to move to LA.

benl 17y ago

Here's another genuine way of asking the same question. Why do people continue to believe that European social democracies have the highest quality of life, when people vote with their feet in the other direction?

Retric 17y ago
An average speaks nothing about the standard deviation. The minimum quality of life in the US is far lower than many European countries, but young, educated, intelligent, and motivated people are rarely at the bottom. PS: Consider the AIDS rate in Washington DC at ~3%. "Our rates are higher than West Africa" http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/14/AR2009031402176.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03... However, other areas of the country are way below that, even as other groups are much worse. "Black men, with an infection rate of nearly 7 percent, carry the weight of the disease, according to the report, which also underscores that the District's HIV and AIDS population is aging. Almost 1 in 10 residents between the ages of 40 and 49 has the virus."